Fediverse

Kolanaki , in The devil himself...
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Ugh... He's also one of those "first" posters? What a jackass.

BolexForSoup , in Can KBin not like, freak out at any turn when surfing on it?
@BolexForSoup@kbin.social avatar

Can we not like, do that Reddit thing at every turn where a certain topic/title always makes it to the top and everybody just duplicates it even though the exact same conversation happens every time?

FaceDeer , in A case for preemptively defederating with Threads
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

I came to the Threadiverse because Reddit was closing its APIs and building the walls higher around its garden.

I will be supremely disappointed if the Threadiverse collectively turns around and does the same thing.

Instances should be defederated when they do something harmful. Preemptively defederating is counterproductive, it gives Meta no incentive to do things right.

shinratdr ,
@shinratdr@lemmy.ca avatar

Yep, the Reddit metaphor really backfired. If Reddit joined the fediverse I would happily consume their content. It would actually be a wonderful compromise where reddit wouldn’t have to provide direct app support and instead just publish out via ActivityPub and people could build third party clients through that.

I left Twitter because they killed Tweetbot and I left Reddit because they killed Apollo. I genuinely hate the experience of those sites with their native apps, and I use these kinds of services almost exclusively on my phone.

While I also hate Elon Musk and Spez, I strongly dislike most tech CEOs so while a motivator, it wasn’t the biggest factor for me. It’s important to remember we’re not all here for the same reason, and user-level instance blocking is the real solution here.

You don’t like some fediverse member? Then block them at the user level and move on, or start your own server and block them there. Don’t force everyone else on your server to not even have the option just for you.

ThatOneKirbyMain2568 OP ,
@ThatOneKirbyMain2568@kbin.social avatar

I came to the Threadiverse because Reddit was closing its APIs and building the walls higher around its garden. I will be supremely disappointed if the Threadiverse collectively turns around and does the same thing.

So instances on the fediverse have some obligation to let entities who (A) will control 99% of the content, against our values of a decentralized, more evenly distributed fediverse; (B) have zero interest in an open fediverse; and (C) have all the incentive in the world to prevent its growth and get more people on their own platform to ensure profit? As usually hesitant as I am about preemptive defederation, if the fediverse is to preserve its values of openness and ensure its growth, it can't let in for-profit corporations that will control most of the activity and that go directly against those values of openness we care about so much. Just as tolerance doesn't mean letting in those who are intolerant, an unwalled fediverse can and should put its guards up against those who want to take everything for themselves.

it gives Meta no incentive to do things right

Meta already has zero incentive to do things right. In fact, they have negative incentive, as people being on Mastodon or Kbin instead of Threads actively harms them. You will never see Mark Zuckerberg suggest that people spread out to other instances so that no one gains too much control, but you will see him try to get as many people from the other instances on Threads as possible. We are talking about making our activity dependent on a for-profit tech corporation. If we were way larger so that Threads wouldn't control such a massive portion of activity, I wouldn't be as concerned, but as things stand now, we're letting our content pool be dominated by a company that has interests in direct opposition with ours. I can't see a scenario where any of this ends well.

sour ,
@sour@kbin.social avatar

what makes this time special that facebook wont cause problem

facebook already habe no incentive to do things right

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

Nothing makes it special. My point is not that I think Facebook will do no wrong, my point is that it's counterproductive to defederate from them before they've done something wrong.

sour , (edited )
@sour@kbin.social avatar

is it because removes incentive

if facebook had incentive in first place they wouldn't be genocide enabler

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

Uh... huh. Okay, I'm going to count that as a Godwin and leave it at that.

sour ,
@sour@kbin.social avatar

._.

HarkMahlberg , (edited ) in A case for preemptively defederating with Threads
@HarkMahlberg@kbin.social avatar

Reposting this discussion for posterity

Big takeaways, emphasis preserved from the original:

Threads is entering a space in the fediverse which is dominated by Mastodon, so it's Mastodon and other fediverse microblogging services (including, to some extent, /kbin) which will most heavily feel the impact of Threads.

Defederating another server means your instance will stop requesting content from that server. ... Defederation is about what data comes in, not what goes out. ... Defederation doesn't make you invisible, it doesn't block anybody else from seeing you, it doesn't protect your content, it only means you never have to see their content.

Firstly, the fediverse is a drop in the ocean compared to Threads (104 million registered users). Obviously, Meta wants everybody, but their specific goals in terms of user-poaching are far more likely to center around the ~350 million active Twitter users than the ~12 million fediverse users (~3.5 million active). The threadiverse [Lemmy, Kbin, et al] is smaller again, at something like 100,000 active users.

"Threads will overwhelm the fediverse with their inferior content and culture." Like the EEE fears, this one is legitimate but once again something that will primarily be felt by microblogging providers (/kbin included). Toxic users, advertisers, etc. can push garbage into feeds all day, but they will largely not be targeting the threadiverse because there's some 100 million sets of eyes to put that crap in front of on the microblogging side and it will be difficult-to-impossible for them to push that content into Lemmy/kbin threads from their interface that was never made to interact with the threadiverse.

Is there any chance Meta has good intentions? No. But it might have intentions that are both self-serving and fediverse-neutral. The absolute best intention I can possibly ascribe to Meta is that joining the fediverse is a CYA (cover your ass) mechanism to head off regulations, especially in the EU, [e.g.] the newly-applicable Digital Markets Act ...

CoffeeAddict ,
@CoffeeAddict@kbin.social avatar

Defederation is about what an instance allows in, not what an instance allows out. Defederation stops you seeing the defederated instance's content, but it does not stop them seeing your instance's content.

Threads poses some danger to the fediverse, in particular the portion of it centered around microblogging (mostly Mastodon, but also Pleroma, parts of /kbin, etc.), but very little risk to the threadiverse.

The worst thing about the fediverse is all the fondue, but you don't have to eat it.

Emphasis from the original post.

This is a detailed summary, thank you for linking.

I have also read some other POVs here; my fears are not totally allayed and I still think Meta is only engaing with Activity Pub to prevent new, potential competitors arising from it.

I hope the OP is right about it being very little risk to the Threadiverse. The good news is that Threads is focused enitrely on microblogging and not the Threadiverse. Perhaps that means Kbin and Lemmy users will be able to sit on the sidelines and see how it plays out for a bit, idk. Mastodon users will be seeing the most change.

Either way, I remain a skeptic.

ThatOneKirbyMain2568 OP ,
@ThatOneKirbyMain2568@kbin.social avatar

The issue is that this does affect Kbin because Kbin is a microblogging platform. It's also a thread aggregator, but it has microblog functionality that some people do actually use. Should we not defederate, stuff from Threads will flood the microblogs of Kbin. If your home page is set to use the All Content feed (like mine is), you'll see microblogs from Threads there. This doesn't have as much of an effect as it does on a purely microblogging-focused platform like Mastodon, but it does still affect a big way that Kbin is used.

CoffeeAddict ,
@CoffeeAddict@kbin.social avatar

Right, and that’s part of why I remain a skeptic. Kbin’s microblog being overtaken by Thread’s content could very well limit kbin’s growth and viability as a microblogging platform - especially if Meta pulls the plug later.

But, I have also seen the opinion that not having Threads content could make kbin unappealing as a microblogging platform. (I’m not sure if I agree with this, but I have seen it mentioned.)

I guess the questions are, Can Kbin grow with Threads content? And, Will the lack of Threads content make it unappealing to new users?

Also, another problem I think is that kbin might not have the userbase and content yet to be self-sustaining when faced with a goliath company like Meta; if we produced as much content as Threads will (or enough to the point that defederating kbin would hurt Threads) then there wouldn’t be much of a concern.

Idk, Threads is ultimately the one forcing the situation (probably intentionally) where federating with them is risky but also refusing to do so could be self-isolating. I still maintain that they’re doing it now while the fediverse is still young for a reason, and that is so they can grab so much of the “fondue” that everyone comes to them anyway.

I would like to see kbin succeed, and I don’t trust Meta. Whatever kbin decides to do I will be here for it, but I’m definitely a Meta skeptic.

HarkMahlberg ,
@HarkMahlberg@kbin.social avatar

To put my own skin in the game, I quite like the microblogging side of kbin. I like that I can swap between the thread and blog sides, I like that I can combine them into one view if I choose, and I like that I don't need a separate account to use either service. Using kbin's microblog was the first time I ever blogged, period. I'd hate to see that stream be overwhelmed by Threads users.

CoffeeAddict ,
@CoffeeAddict@kbin.social avatar

Exactly one of the reasons why I remain a skeptic.

I don’t want sound too much like I’m complaining about “Eternal September” but I quite like how kbin’s microblog is right now. Having millions of threads users suddenly flood it with random… crap… would change it forever.

I haven’t used instagram in more than half a decade. When I hopped on to see what it was like recently, I hardly recognized it and all the content was completely irrelevant. I would hate to see that happen to the microblog.

CaptObvious , in President Biden is now posting into the fediverse

Threads isn't exactly the fediverse.

btaf45 OP ,

They don't have the entire Mastodon functionality yet but it is awesome we can follow Biden on Mastodon.

CaptObvious ,

They’ll never have the full Mastodon functionality because they’re Facebook. It’s always going to be a one way proposition where Masto can see them but they can’t see us. It’s honestly kind of like being a creepy Peeping Tom.

Assuming, of course, that your instance doesn’t block Threads. Many (most?) do. Some even block second-degree connections.

btaf45 OP ,

They’ll never have the full Mastodon functionality

Until they do, my only interaction with Threads will be to follow Biden on kbin.

Sabata11792 OP , (edited ) in The devil himself...
@Sabata11792@kbin.social avatar
btaf45 ,

https://kbin.social/m/random/p/5219740/First-post-in-the-fediverse

Can you explain how you know this link path to someone who doesn't?

Sabata11792 OP ,
@Sabata11792@kbin.social avatar

I found the post in the microblog section by chance and copied the link. Just good timing. I have no idea how to sort though that section of the site.

Rottcodd , in Can KBin not like, freak out at any turn when surfing on it?
@Rottcodd@kbin.social avatar

This isn't "the fediverse." This is one instance. "The fediverse" is a network of interoperable instances, each one owned and maintained separately.

Personally, I think the best way to interact with the fediverse is to maintain accounts on multiple instances. I have a dozen or so accounts total, and regularly use four or five of them. They're all under the same name, so they're all "me," but they're spread out instead of everything being on one account on one instance.

The main reason I prefer that is that every instance is different. Even though they're all interacting with the same broad pool of content, they each have a different userbase with different preferences, which means that they each have a different set of federated instances and subscribed communities. There's a fair amount of stuff I'll see on one instance but not on another, and it follows the overall focus of the instance. So whatever my mood might be or I might be interested in, I have an account on a suitable instance to match it.

Another advantage though, and directly on topic, is that I always have an alternative if one of them is having problems. Since each instance is privately owned and maintained rather than being owned by a corporation and maintained by its staff, there's any number of quirks and difficulties and failures. And that's just the way it is - the people running these instances are just ordinary people who are basically donating their time and resources, and they don't owe us anything. We get whatever we get, and have no right to demand any more than that.

With accounts on multiple instances, it doesn't matter if one or another of them has difficulties at the moment, or even if one shuts down completely (as two of my favorites have), since i can just switch to a different instance any time.

Kbin is special. It's an entirely different piece of software from Lemmy (and a better one in many ways). But it was written primarily by one person - Ernest - and he's also the owner of this instance. And while he's a great guy, he's also a single individual with other interests and responsibilities, and with some health issues. So it's a great place running on a great piece of software, but it has some difficulties and is often slow and/or glitchy. That's fine - I still like it here, so it's one of my most-used accounts, and I can always use a different one on a different instance if this one is too much of a problem.

FarraigePlaisteach , in Getting Tangled Up in Threads
@FarraigePlaisteach@kbin.social avatar

The only people arguing for it omit moral considerations, which is sad to see so widespread. There’s a certain price not worth paying for our toys.

Fitik , in How do we feel about Flipboard federating?

There's pingable accounts if you use / and want to follow them:
The Verge — @theverge
Fast Company — @FastCompany
Semafor — @semafor
SPIN — @SPINMag
News Literacy Project — @NewsLitProject
Medium — @Medium
Digiday — @Digiday
ScienceAlert — @ScienceAlert
Polygon — @polygon
Frommers — @FrommersMag
Kotaku — @Kotaku
The 74 — @The74
Pitchfork — @pitchfork
Refinery29 — @Refinery29
Mental Floss — @mental_floss
The Root — @TheRoot
Joysauce — @Joysauce
IndieWire — @IndieWire
LGBTQ Nation — @LGBTQNation
Smithsonian Magazine — @Smithsonianmag
AFAR Media — @AfarMedia
The Christian Science Monitor — @csmonitor
Erin Brockovich — @ErinBrockovich
Canada's National Observer — @NatObserver
The Conversation (US) — @ConversationUS

Pamasich , (edited )
@Pamasich@kbin.social avatar

Kbin user here, these don't work for me.

I thought it's because the instance is missing, but I checked out your comment on fedia.io and it seems like everything is correct there.

Here on kbin.social it only displays @username without the instance afterwards, and the link itself isn't federated it seems. So kbin tries to resolve the name locally, fails, and just displays it in plaintext.

Mars2k21 , in How do we feel about Flipboard federating?
@Mars2k21@kbin.social avatar

Glad Flipboard is expanding in the Fediverse, I've been following their various news accounts on Mastodon for a while now. It especially helps the fediverse feel more complete as a social media platform.

Sure, these don't really matter for Lemmy and Kbin, but they are a huge deal for microblogging platforms like mastodon or misskey.

iso ,
@iso@lemy.lol avatar

I guess they’re federated with kbin too: kbin.social/u/@theverge

SamXavia , in How do we feel about Flipboard federating?
@SamXavia@kbin.run avatar

It's not a bad thing, gives you the option to read them on the Fediverse and it proves that the Fediverse could possibly be the future of Social Media. It's good to see other people want to see it grow.

If people don't like it then personally block it, the only reason for blocking a whole instance, instance wide is if it has morals that conflict to much such as a Anti-LGBT instance vs a LGBT one.

FreeBooteR69 , in For the "Why are you so hostile to Threads federating?" people..
@FreeBooteR69@kbin.social avatar

Why are people so horny for federating with fb/meta? If you want to see their shit just join them.

Aatube ,
@Aatube@kbin.social avatar

Users ≠ Company

FarraigePlaisteach ,
@FarraigePlaisteach@kbin.social avatar

But they are inseparable.

Aatube ,
@Aatube@kbin.social avatar

As in you're using the service, but that doesn't mean you two are one and make the same decisions.

FarraigePlaisteach ,
@FarraigePlaisteach@kbin.social avatar

But you support/validate the service by interacting with your contacts.

Aatube ,
@Aatube@kbin.social avatar

Let's put it this way: Just because they live under an oppressive regime doesn't mean we should be mean to them and keep them isolated in their evil bubble.

FarraigePlaisteach ,
@FarraigePlaisteach@kbin.social avatar

It’s not being mean to them. Calling them names or something would be mean.

And they are not oppressed. Oppressed people don’t have choices.

Aatube ,
@Aatube@kbin.social avatar

Say, many would agree that Han people in China are oppressed. They have a ton of middle-class citizens who are free to leave the country, they just don't want to permanently due to not thinking it'd be better.

Same applies to Threads, though maybe a stronger case for leaving.

FarraigePlaisteach ,
@FarraigePlaisteach@kbin.social avatar

I’m not having a conversation that compares people signing up to their favourite social media channel with people who suffer systemic discrimination every day in their lives.

Aatube ,
@Aatube@kbin.social avatar

Han people are the main ethnicity of China; they aren’t the Uyghurs, if that’s what you mean

ripcord ,
@ripcord@kbin.social avatar

Like who are you talking about, exactly?

I've seen like 1 person and they weren't super enthusiastic, just said it was generally a good thing.

And some other people who are mostly just meh about it at most.

originalucifer , in For the "Why are you so hostile to Threads federating?" people..
@originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com avatar

im going to treat it like any other email instance server. trust until they give me a reason not to, and then known contingencies can be implemented.

snooggums ,
@snooggums@kbin.social avatar

Ok, since we already know they can't be trusted...

originalucifer ,
@originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com avatar

yeah thats not how protocols work, and 'we' dont really know what their implementation of this open protocol is going to look like.

but yeah, you can knee jerk yourself up all ya want. have fun. im not going to care about this issue until it becomes an issue.

you dont have people/world/fuckinganyone blocking facebooks email servers out of pure spite.

admiralteal ,

I mean, you know they aren't going to have adequate content moderation because they ALREADY don't. Lack of moderation is the #1, #2, and #3 best reasons to defederate.

Wanting to see proof before taking positive action is valid and sensible. But you can't pretend it isn't something you can already make reasonable inferences about. This is not a new unknown and pretending it is is ridiculous.

Email servers do not automatically feed content into and pull content out of your system. They only send and deliver to specific people at specific addresses. Federation is a firehose. You can close the hydrant before or after it gets hooked up to city water, but at the end of the day only people that chose to do things the sensible way will have dry socks and no water damage.

originalucifer ,
@originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com avatar

Federation is a firehose.

this is just not true, sorry. instances only retrieve/pushed specified actions/actors. . pretending it is is ridiculous. this is now a new unknown, this is how the ap protocol works.

and your shit is already public, if they want to suck it all in there is literally nothing stopping them right now. federation or not.

SharkAttak OP ,
@SharkAttak@kbin.social avatar

Like I linked in the OP post, the problem isn't their implementation of the protocol, but what FB is, and what it has done; and it probably would not stop doing it in the Fediverse. If Hannnibal Lecter moved in the neighbourhood I wouldn't answer his dinner invite, just to see what's on the menu.

CJOtheReal , in For the "Why are you so hostile to Threads federating?" people..

Also its Facebook. Fuck em.

shinratdr , in A case for preemptively defederating with Threads
@shinratdr@lemmy.ca avatar

All I’ll say is that it’s not much of a “fediverse” if you just preemptively defederate from anyone trying to grow it because you’re scared of what might change. More of a “fediclub” at that point.

Really kills the “it’s like email!” metaphor when you defederaters are constantly trying to break that interoperability by stirring up FUD and blocking instances for theoretical stuff they haven’t even done yet.

It’s like email except your server admin might decide one day they don’t want you to talk to anyone who has an @gmail.com address because they don’t like Google. What fun!

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