Why would the Dems care? They know who it is that will protect their privilege and power for them when the working-class no longer buys their “centrist” bullshit - that’s why they spend so much time “reaching across the aisle” to naked fascism.
I get that people dont like that argument of Democrats also being bad especially when one party is very clearly in full support of fascism or dictatorship akin to kings put in power not by Divine Right but by Corporate Right.
But fuck me if they willfully ignore the fact that the Democrat party is now essentially the Republican party of years ago with their policy being, “Dont do anything”. So we sit still while they are in power to then roll backwards with the Republicans.
“But they try” i already hear the shouts. No. Some try. The party does not. Honestly i am pretty tired of upper class white people saying it’s better if we stay Democrat leadership because they are ok with stagnation as long as they are still comfortably higher up the ladder from drowning. I’d rather us all be miserable so maybe people can get their heads out of their ass, live in reality and realize that things really need fixing. Their bubble of checkmarks means nothing, and I’m tired of pandering to narcissist who insist the world is still about them instead of larger issues.
We need a third party, but we cant have that. So we need a change of power. Which wont be allowed either. So instead we rot and people say
“well it could be worse.”
Fuck you. It could be better.
A question to American Lemmy users: from what I can tell you are Democrats for the vast majority : would you consider voting for a Republican president if you aligned with his ideas, or if the Democrat candidate was an unredeemable piece of shit? The two party system makes zero sense to me because it doesn’t seem, at first glance, that they’re a huge overlap, people are not willing to go to the other side often, it seems. … what’s the point of having debates and stuff then?
If you’re looking at the Senate it’s actually the other way around in the last decade. With the house and other offices it’s much harder to say who does it more. I don’t think it’s any sort of conspiracy or playbook, just something that makes the news and sticks in people’s memory when it happens… It’s a betrayal after all.
People who go online on sites like Lemmy to discuss politics are usually strongly in favor of one party over the other. However, not everyone who votes in elections is like that. There are many moderate or swing voters. Presidential elections in particular are decided by a few key swing states. There is also an expectation that the Congress and the Courts could be a check on each other and on the President, so sometimes people vote for a candidate that they don’t fully agree with. Debates aren’t always about which candidate or party has a more agreeable stance on the issues, but rather which issues are the most important.
There are no real moderates and swing voters are those who don’t pay enough attention to what’s going on to have an opinion on it. In reality, swing voters are ignorant.
I’m registered NPA. I think, generally, everyone should be represented. I have voted Democrat, Republican and independent. Although the past couple elections I have voted straight Democrat because the Republican party has seriously taken a fascist turn.
Before 2016 I was definitely in the camp of looking at both major parties as well as any third parties. I was voting for who I thought was the best despite whatever party they were in.
However, 2016 really opened my eyes to what the Republican party is. They are a party that isn’t allowed to have different ideas. You follow the party line and do what you are told or you will be kicked out. Even republicans I thought might have cared for this country would have taken a stance but they didn’t. They tucked their tails and bent the knee.
I will never ever vote for a Republican. I can see clear as day what they are now and it isn’t good. They aren’t able to hide who they are anymore.
You can have debates in the Republican party. You can in the democratic party. Which unfortunately makes the Dems a weaker party because it isn’t a cult you are allowed to have a different opinion. The democratic party is basically all the sane adults that are left. It’s not just the “left” anymore it’s those in the center or those who didn’t go far right with the Republicans. The Dems will spend the next year attacking each other and fighting within the party because they aren’t unified and told what to think by one leader. So not all Dems will turn out.
It seems voter like to dismiss everything the democratic party does if they don’t line up with them completely on every issue. The voters find one reason to vote for Republicans and ignore the rest of party line.
It used to be all back room whispers and dog whistles from the top brass running the party until one guy shows up and says all the quiet parts out loud, and now the mask has fallen completely off
Yeah 2016 changed me from Green Party to Democrat, and literally the Green Party turned out to be taking bribes from oligarchs to cut votes. But that just makes me bitter. I dont have someone i want to vote for i just have a party i have to try and vote against.
It’s a miserable existence trying to compromise on everything you care about and let parties of rich assholes do whatever they want because you have no other choices other than stagnation or damnation.
The governing systems are so broken I almost just wish them to break entirely to get people who so comfortably ignore it to care but instead it will just hurt lots of people who apparently half of them desire it anyways as long as it hurts someone they think deserves it. Yay, we live in the middle ground of new mafias and shit conditions and crumbling society in a boiling planet. What a fucking joke.
I would absolutely vote Republican if they were just a bit to the left on abortions, education, and unions. Actually unions and teamsters would totally support Republicans if they weren’t openly hostile to them.
Right now they’re just different flavors of big government endlessly growing and I really think some libertarians need some wins to shake them up.
Do you have some examples? The term libertarian seems to me to have been hijacked by the far right for the most part, and I’d like to see there’s real libertarians out there
There IS some degree of factionalism within the two party system. It is much more pronounced in the Democratic Party. Ever since Reagan in 1980, the Republican Party’s factionalism became severely diminished. The Libertarians are kind of their most loosely held affiliation.
The primary system is largely designed help direct and influence the political platforms of the two parties. The two parties have made some significant pivots and switches over its history.
But far more importantly however: What has really happened is the Citizens United and lesser known Speechnow decisions by the US Supreme Court effectively legalized corporate buyout of the American electoral system.
Let me put it this way, anyone who still identifies as a Republican is not worth voting for. If you can look past the fascists, racists, nazis, misogynists, fanatical religious nut jobs and still go “yeah, I’ll associate with these people”, then there is something irredeemably fucked up about you, and I’m not going to vote for you. Sure, democrats aren’t perfect, but they tend to throw out their trash, instead of giving it a megaphone and a fancy committee seat.
American politics didn’t used to be the polarized team sport it is now.
We’re seeing the ultimate culmination of the Southern Strategy: Get with the preachers who run those “god says hate the blacks” churches that the South is full of, pay them to say “God says vote the Republicans in so we can use the government to take it out on the blacks.” Fast forward 60 years, and take a look around.
Actually, the metaphor works a bit better than you think. If there is no such thing as a cop that cannot not serve the fascist institution that employs them, it might just be true that there is no such thing as a politician that cannot not serve the interests that assures them their power and privilege.
Before the Tea Party movement in the Republican party, yes I definitely could have been convinced to vote for a Republican candidate. I was actually intending to vote for John McCain for president because at that time in history, both parties really did still have their crazy branches, but the relatively rational adults who knew how to compromise for the good of the country still ran the show, and I was genuinely concerned that Obama didn’t have enough political experience to be president.
Then McCain nominated Sarah Palin for his Vice President. That was such a pandering, cowardly, caving to the will of the utterly ignorant, insane extremists in the Republican party move that I voted for Obama. And then the entire Republican party got so mad that a black guy was president that they collectively lost their whole fucking minds.
Republicans no longer want to govern. They want to break things and stay in power and that’s it. That’s their entire platform. There’s nothing to debate because they literally aren’t even trying to DO anything useful. Their entire political position right now is “do the opposite of what Democrats want.” They have nothing to vote FOR. People who vote Republican right now are doing so only because they’re voting against the bogeymen in their own heads.
That was John McCain’s single greatest mistake. Actually I’d bet it was the national GOP party that forced it. In any case, I really thought that they believed they found the magic sauce and could get both the Tea Party yahoos and the establishment as well.
Would you consider voting for the party of people who have always dedicated themselves to hating you and making you suffer as much as they can get away with legally?
The answer, unequivocally, is “Abso-fucking-lutely.” But, you phrased the question wrong because you assume that people that vote Democratic are Democrats. They are not. Something like 20-30% of people who vote exclusively or near exclusively Democratic consider themselves Democrats, whereas Republican voters are around 50-60% for their respective categorization.
This isn’t particularly strange if you think about the authoritarian vs anarchical political dichotomy these two voter bases lean to for more than a second. The real problem with that is that Republicans, as a general rule, would never align with socialist values. So, while technically they could, anyone that claims to be a Republican with my values is almost entirely likely to be lying.
But, you missed a big thing in American politics: The moderate voter. We have a large group of people who consider themselves moderate, for reasons that all range within the realms of apathetic ignorance to willful ignorance. These people have either no moral quandaries with either particular side, are general unaffected by politics in a way perceivable to them, or are people who lean one way but do have moral quandaries with that side. Debates between parties are for them, which is why it’s about presentation, media sound bites, and moderate views.
Within the Democratic party, there’s debate about how to handle climate change. There are people who advocate for slow, cautious changes and still see fossil fuels having a small role to play in the future. There are others within the Democratic party that want more drastic action, and make a huge government spending program to try to rapidly move the US energy to renewables (even naming it after one of the biggest US government programs made during the depression). That’s normal politics. And it’s all within the Democratic party.
The GOP mostly deny climate change exists. A few GOP members suggest that climate change is happening, but is a natural event not caused by man.
The recent house drama from the speakership battle was caused because 10 nutjobs didn’t want to fund any social programs and wouldn’t approve the budget. Most GOP compromised and made a TEMPORARY budget proposal that the Democratic reps would vote for. This caused the hardliners to remove the speaker. Because he had the audacity to compromise on a TEMPORARY budget.
Removing policy aside and just looking at behavior, many GOP members do not believe in compromising to get things done. There’s attempts to not hold elected officials accountable (unless they are from the other party). It’s very little cooperation and more retaliation.
A single GOP senator didn’t like that the US military would reimburse a servicemember’s travel for medical care if they lived in a state where some reproductive treatments weren’t available. This one senator has single-handedly denied 360 military promotions and nominations to military positions. The Senate has historically tried to make it where being the minority party still had some power, so the rules let this happen (the other GOP senators on this committee weren’t blocking, just the one guy).
The Democratic senators became so fed up they decided to change the rules to prevent a single committee member from blocking promotions. While most GOP senators publicly condemn this guy, many said this rule change was too much. So it looks like the rule change vote will be along party lines, although the #1 GOP senator has said it might be necessary to vote through to get the military back on track.
The last GOP senator really known for being reasonable and wanting to work collaboratively (McCain) died. He was respected by both parties until Trump came along, and now the GOP don’t really hold his legacy in high regard.
Sorry, a lot longer than I intended, but it’s a pattern showing no desire to try to govern effectively. Putting all issues of policy aside, I think it’s a bad idea to vote for the GOP.
The only issue with that summary is that the people who voted to remove the representative willing to compromise were the GOP nutjobs AND the entirety of the 208 DNC representatives that were present. While I’m sure they had some political reason (aside from the popcorn moments), they showed that they, too, weren’t going to help someone willing to compromise.
In what world did Democrats owe McCarthy anything? He backtracked on the debt limit deal he personally negotiated in the summer to try and appease the nutjobs, and on his commitment to require a vote by the full House of Representatives before launching an impeachment inquiry into Biden, proving himself unreliable, untrustworthy, and a slave to the whims of the extremist fringe in his caucus. He publicly stated that he did not want house Democrats to help him keep the speakership, never reached out to them once in the leadup to his ouster, and offered zero concessions to entice Democrats to vote for him. So why in the world is it Democrats’ fault that they didn’t vote for a backstabbing, untrustworthy, extremist lunatic that spit on them publicly and gave them nothing to entice their vote?
I’m sick and tired of the rhetoric that since Democrats are the responsible adults in the room, they have to bear responsibility for not bailing the GOP out of their own messes. How about we hold McCarthy responsible for not keeping his caucus under control, or the right wing nutjobs for voting like they have full control of the government instead of being the fringe of the fringe in a party that controls a single chamber in Congress?
One thing to note is for all our partisan noise, the USA is a nation of centrists. If either party would put up a candidate that didn’t pander to the extremes of their party they’d win in a landslide, but that doesn’t make for very good down ticket fundraising and that’s what it’s all about.
No Democrat or Republican gives any shit about the actual country. All they’re interested in doing is making themselves rich.
My problem is that since the first time I’ve been able to vote, the Democratic party has shown they don’t care about who the people may want. They will actively suppress whoever isn’t their chosen one. And there are cases where they fund ads for their crazy opposition instead of building a meaningful case for their candidate. I voted for Biden originally, and I will not vote for Trump now, but I need more than “vote for me because I’m not the other guy”, especially the second time around. If Trump wins, it’s because the Democratic party shot themselves in the foot. Party cohesion is made by leaders who listen to their constituents.
The article could have, but didn’t, make the point that our politics and the rhetoric surrounding it today serve the right by subverting faith in democracy, and by exhausting likely voters’ critical faculties:
Yesterday, David Roberts of the energy and politics newsletter Volts noted that a Washington Post article illustrated how right-wing extremism is accomplishing its goal of destroying faith in democracy. Examining how “in a swing Wisconsin county, everyone is tired of politics,” the article revealed how right-wing extremism has sucked up so much media oxygen that people have tuned out, making them unaware that Biden and the Democrats are doing their best to deliver precisely what those in the article claim to want: compromise, access to abortion, affordable health care, and gun safety.
One person interviewed said, “I can’t really speak to anything [Biden] has done because I’ve tuned it out, like a lot of people have. We’re so tired of the us-against-them politics.” Roberts points out that “both sides” are not extremists, but many Americans have no idea that the Democrats are actually trying to govern, including by reaching across the aisle. Roberts notes that the media focus on the right wing enables the right wing to define our politics. That, in turn, serves the radical right by destroying Americans’ faith in our democratic government.
There’s also the tendency for people to assign to the incumbent all of the problems that happen on his watch- at this point, even with material improvements for most people, it’s a hard sell to convince people that they’re better off when every bit of right-wing media is devoted to telling people they’re worse off and the mainstream media just both-sides it like there isn’t one party trying mightily to end American democracy.
Right wing media hasn’t eliminated the incumbent advantage.
Stop trying to trick people into thinking they want the Dems to weaken their position by officially showing the world that they don’t have full faith in our current president.
Stop trying to trick people into thinking they want the Dems to weaken their position by officially showing the world that they don’t have full faith in our current president.
What the fuck are you talking about? Where did I say that?
Ok so it starts with you. Volunteer with your local voting rights groups and get people registered to vote. Work their social media teams. Go to high schools and go register those turning 18. Voting rights groups are well known for this useful work.
It’s a good thing Republicans are better for the working class then. GTFO of here with this argument. Our federal gov has 2 ellectible parties, vote for the one that sucks less in the general. Anything else is voting for the Republican candidate.
I’m not a shill either, I fucking hate the democratic party, but I’m also not dumb enough to trash them to a point that I don’t fully support them in the election.
Sure that’s all well and good for a personal ethos POV, but traditionally the Democrat path to victory is to get more people to vote by energizing the voter base. So being out of touch matters immensely and simply not being Trump is not going to engage the people the Dems need to win.
It was never about Dems vs Republicans because Dems don’t win by making Republicans vote for their candidate, Democrats win when they can increase voter turnout.
Too bad that one party being much worse doesnt make the faults of the Democratic party untrue. They havent really been much for real democracy lately have they? They push candidates unfairly. Do back market deals to enrich themselves and keep seats of power. And all while actively help push extreme right wing electorates to make themselves look better.
If someone was murdering children and the other person raping them and we had to pick only one to be in charge of the daycare I’m not picking the murderer but im certainly not gonna sit by and ignore the fact that we are putting someone very wrong for a position in place and im gonna fuckinf raise hell about it.
You cant just say the other person is worse and expect people to just stop talking about the obvious faults that are apparent in your choice.
I’m just imagining domestic terrorists getting pardons and emboldening more and more. Go to conservative forums, people are out for blood. desperate for a scape-goat like the people of Germany in the 30s
I’m not voting for biden again. I don’t care what you say.
He is simply a more skilled fascist than trump. He cut a check to Israel so fast with a smile on his face.
people voting for dems again: have fun spewing the same circular logic about how I have to vote for the lesser of two super evils dude, EVERY SINGLE election.
Y’all are more dangerous to democracy than trump supporters.
I threw my vote away when I voted for biden. I got exactly zero of the things I wanted. And an extra genocide supply on the side.
Not to mention roe v wade got overturned. But that’s totally different because the dems are… Powerless to make real change? or even to keep things from sliding back?
But I should keep voting for them Because…they are also powerless to stop trump? Lmao.
I threw my vote away when I voted for biden. I got exactly zero of the things I wanted
It’s better to not get the things you want than to get fucked by Trump destroying everything.
Not to mention roe v wade got overturned. But that’s totally different because the dems are… Powerless to make real change? or even to keep things from sliding back?
You are really misinformed. Roe got overturned directly as a result of republicans getting voted into power. Trump had a shit load of judicial appointments, including 3 SCOTUS appointments.
The appointment Biden got was only able to maintain the status quo instead of making things worse.
You’re literally blaming the democrats for the republican’s evil actions.
You are really misinformed. Roe got overturned directly as a result of republicans getting voted into power. Trump had a shit load of judicial appointments, including 3 SCOTUS appointments.
Both parties are culpable, they switch back and forth in control and nothing actually changes.
You’re literally blaming the democrats for the republican’s evil actions.
Democrats are completely unable to stop republicans evil action. They are worthless or accomplices or both.
You can vote anyway you like, but the fact of the matter is that our fptp voting system is naturally going to trend towards two parties, and so we’re stuck with a certain game theory.
If you want to change the system, that happens at the grassroot level, where then you work up to change the system. Trying to start with the president is just ridiculously naive.
And thinking that people who recognize the threat of trump and also understand how the system works are actually the bigger threat than the people actively attempting to elect a fascist…well, fuck, dude. I don’t even know what to say to such stupidity.
If so, “they” were right then, as Trump openly refused to concede power when he lost, and lied so much that his cultists rose up and attacked the capitol in an attempt to overturn an election. It was an attempted coup.
The game is rigged. There are no good candidates. Stop voting for them.
I agree the game is rigged. However, the problem is that you’re short-sighted and don’t understand how changes like this happen. They don’t happen from the top-down, but the bottom up. You’re yelling into the void if you think “I’m not voting for one of the two parties!” does anything at all.
You’re telling me how to change the system because you know for a fact that the dems are worthless. Lmao.
Yes, by saying “if you want to change the system” I was clearly saying the dems are worthless. You’re a true genius. You must be doing quite well in life.
No they weren’t. I voted blue. Biden got elected, and then he supplied the ongoing genocide. That is not a win. That is just the same abhorrent outcome that is completely unacceptable.
However, the problem is that you’re short-sighted
I would say the same thing about you. You are the one who is insisting we continue to use the bandaid, aka voting for the lesser.
