You're also responsible for what you do when you're drunk! Guess what. You cannot purchase ethical excuses. That's YOUR Tesla. You own it. You're in charge of it regardless of whether or not Tesla makes it impossible to access the controls.
Buyer beware. Stop buying proprietary garbage, ya idiots.
Unfortunately there is no car that isn't proprietary and even ones without "auto pilot" have things like collision detection that can slam on the breaks for you.
There are high quality reliable cars that still run great from the early to mid 2000s. They are very inexpensive compared to modern vehicles. May cost a bit more in gas.
You control them completely
Didn't he preach in the past that NOT using automated driving systems would be completely unsafe?
Even those are riddled with proprietary devices. Cars have had a CAN bus network of devices for decades. These closed smarts alone have caused things like the emissions scandal. These alone interfere with right to repair and competition. What is new is the spying and direct control, but the problem is older than that.
What? No, I want people to be responsible because that is what works.
Search "car slams breaks in false positive collision detection". There are loads of stories. Mine beeps sometimes, but thankfully doesn't apply the breaks itself.
Even modern cars don't all have self drive and collision avoidance. I've driven a few new cars recently and none do more than flash messages and beep when they forsee a crash.
It's not that Teslas are killing their owners. Teslas are killing first responders to road accidents, kids getting off buses and motorcyclists. We're all exposed to the problems caused by Musk cutting out testing to save some money.
Autopilot “is not a self-driving technology and does not replace the driver,” Tesla said in response to a 2020 case filed in Florida. “The driver can and must still brake, accelerate and steer just as if the system is not engaged.”
Tesla's terminology is so confusing. If "Autopilot" isn't self-driving technology, does that mean it's different from "Full Self Driving"? And if so, is "Full Self Driving" also not a self-driving technology?
Autopilot is a more basic driver assist system than FSD. FSD is what will eventually become what the name suggests but it's obviously not there yet and everyone knows this. It's just the name of the system.
Those are really crappy names. How about "driver assist" and "supervised self driving"? Drop the "supervised" once they're ready to market it as real self driving.
FSD is called Full Self-Driving (Supervised) nowdays.
Autopilot can be seen as a misleading term but that has more to do with people not understanding what autopilot on airplanes actually does which is quite similar to what it does on Teslas aswell.
Autopilot isn't being marketed to aviation enthusiasts nor is it a plane so it doesn't matter how autopilot in planes works it matters what the perception is. They could have used a more appropriate term like advanced cruise control
The car being able to get to their destination using the public road network without a single person in it, while fully complying with the law and road safety.
Well, the current version of FSD can do that. It's just not approved for unsupervised driving (level 3) so that's why the driver still needs to be there to be ready to take over at any moment. The current version of it near-perfectly mimics a human driver. I highly recommend to check reviews on YouTube for the version 12. It's quite impressive.
Yes, it can do that. Occasionally. And then it'll randomly fail in the stupidest ways.
And i've actually looked at some Tesla FSD reviews, and every review seems to be of a "2 steps forward, 2 steps back" kind. Look at all these things that improved, and then mentioning all the things that used to work that are now broken again. (of course with a lot more focus on the things that have improved, since hype pays).
I'm honestly wondering how self driving will evolve, it seems we've landed in the really hard last 10% of getting there, and it's mostly come to a stand still.
Specifically Auto Pilot is lane keep and traffic aware cruise control (it will slow down if you're going faster than the car in front)
FSD adds auto lane changes (it can do it by itself or the driver can initiate with the turn signals), makes turns necessary to follow navigation. It does a pretty decent job on freeways.
That they are working on now is getting FSD to work better on city streets and secondary highways
Depends on the autopilot. There are some that are as rudimentary as a "wing leveler." They only have control of the ailerons and can level the wings and maybe make turns. Other systems have control of all three major control axes and are integrated with the navigation systems so they can do things like climb to an altitude and level off, turn to a heading, or even fly holds and approaches.
They do require training on the part of the pilot to use in flight.
Elon Musk claimed that full self driving would be ready in 2017!!
So how many false claims by Elon Musk does it take for someone to think the car can handle trivial situations?
So I assume autopilot disconnects as soon as you take your hands off the wheel, or there’s iris tracking to ensure you’re looking at the road? It’s not like either of these is exotic technology.
That is a full self driving demo and has nothing to do with the Accidents. Full self driving and auto pilot are two different things.
When you sign up for fsd you agree to not take your hands off the wheel and pay extra attention.
Most of the accidents are autopilot which is enhanced cruise control.
I get it words don’t matter. Feelings are what’s important.
The autopilot on my Tesla is much better than the same technology on my Audi. Both technologies are easy to abuse. That isn’t Tesla’s fault. People need to follow the instructions.
Now there are a few cases where the technology completely failed when used correctly and that’s 100% Tesla’s fault in my opinion.
Are you arguing that it’s the people’s fault? Or are you just rambling because it’s Elon.
Or are you just arguing for god know what’s reason?
I’m saying the technology leads to more harm than good in its current implementation. I don’t care it’s better than your Audi, it still sucks overall. “Used correctly” shouldn’t be a huge factor in a good design. It should be easy to use correctly and hard to use incorrectly. This is not the current state. It’s very easy to use incorrectly, as you admit, and the accidents demonstrate this.
It’s clearly supported by the evidence. It’s cruise control. How complicated do you think cruise control is? You put your hands on the wheel and it maintains speed.
Nothing can stop people from being idiots. Most of the accidents are people being idiots.
This is the stupidity I hate most about Tesla shills.
Great engineers make genius innovations all the time to keep idiots from harming themselves or others. Those innovations saturate our society and industries at all levels. Good engineering should be trying to do it more.
Tesla just doesn't care, or is even complicit in giving the idiots just enough freedom so people can think Tesla is ahead of the competition. The only difference from Tesla is that other car manufacturers don't give idiots that freedom.
Yes, when cruise control came out over 100 years ago, there were very little controls. Responsible car makers have changes that. Some even recently aimed for zero fatalities for people using their cars and the associated technologies.
And there are many cars that keep you from driving into a wall. Maybe, at this point, you can't keep 100 percent of the idiots from doing something stupid, but responsible car makers do much, much better than Tesla, who actually promotes and markets the actions of idiots abusing the systems in their cars.
Dude, I was literally in another thread where someone posted a video talking about how many deaths FSD caused (17) and extrapolating those numbers by how many FSD miles were driven lead to fsd being 11x more dangerous than a humans driver.
It had all sorts of upvotes.
Except, those accidents were on AP which has multiple billions of miles driven, not FSD. The NHSTA has only said there was 1 fsd related death. Related, as in, not confirmed to be the cause of.
They don't even know what they're mad about. And i get downvoted for showing the major flaw in their post.
I bet they've never used, or had to acknowledge the warnings prior to using AP. Let alone the even more dire warning FSD gives (or gave prior to v12 anyway, not sure what today's warnings are)
People confuse auto pilot with full self driving. They are very different. AP is just assisted cruise control. I’ve had very few issues with it. Compared to my Audi, I love the Tesla AP.
You think giving me Tesla marketing BS, published by a proxy Tesla marketing rag, is going to convince me? If it is anything else like Tesla's marketing department, they just pulled something out of their ass, Musk saw the numbers and told them to fudge it some more, and then they put it up on their website dressed in fancy graphs and tech-speak. That's why you'll never find any actual data that third-party researchers can verify it with.
Tesla's create horrible driving habits in their customers. On the one hand, you have the CEO that creates a culture to disregard for safety and rules, praising users that openly go against the terms of use, as long as they show it doing something cool. On the other hand, you have a system that is just good enough to lull you into a sense of safety and confidence in the system itself. Then one day it decides to kill a motorcyclist, a kid getting off the bus, or a paramedic working on the side of the road. The driver that maybe praised Tesla to their friends and colleagues about how amazing it was is now dumbstruck because the car acted so unexpectedly.
Tesla is just as much as fault as the driver for that situation.
So why do you think Tesla's crash at a higher rate? I think it's a combination of instant acceleration, poor sensor-suite (like the lack of radar), and Tesla giving idiots free-reign to abuse the system as they please.
Maybe because it has nothing to do with Tesla. It’s a EV thing. Tesla just makes more EV than anyone else. It’s interesting to note when people switch to gas, they have more accidents.
The acceleration is a valid reason. Since Tesla has good controls to compensate for it. People don’t get how quickly they can get to an insane soeed
Scherr’s statements echoed findings by insurance analysts at LexisNexis who found that, when vehicle owners switch from gasoline-powered cars to electric cars, they tend to crash more. Drivers also tend to crash somewhat more when switching to gas-powered vehicles, too, but the increase is more pronounced with EVs.
The increase in incidents is highest during the first year or so after drivers get the new electric vehicle, but then tapers off after that, according to LexisNexis, presumably as people get used to driving the new model. There is much less of a problem when a driver changes from a gasoline-powered vehicle to another gas-powered one, they found.
But LexisNexis researchers had previously noticed similar trends in China, where there are many more EVs – including more that aren’t Teslas.
Crashes are even more frequent in households with both a gas and an electric model, indicating that regularly switching from one to another exacerbates the issues. And the fact that crash frequency lessens with time also suggests that unfamiliarity has something to do with it, said Xiaohui Lu, head of EV research at LexisNexis Risk Solutions,
Okay, so Tesla had the highest rate, but switching power train types seems problematic. It didn't really say if other EVs are close to Tesla's accident rates, or am I missing something?
In any case, I think we can dispel the myth that Tesla is one of the safest cars. They have the worst accident rates among all brands and their driving assist features either can't keep idiots from making bad decisions or, worse, even amplify the dangerous effects that idiots create while driving.
They have the worst accident rates among all brands and their driving assist features either can’t keep idiots from making bad decisions or, worse, even amplify the dangerous effects that idiots create while driving
You need the study to clarify that. Oddly the first article says accidents but when you see how it’s defined, tickets such as spending are called an accident
They give 2 statistics, accidents and incidents. Accidents are crashes, incidents are crashes plus tickets.
Tesla has most accidents per driver. Ram has the most incidents - the report you mention. Tesla has the second most incidents.
So, Teslas still top the number is accidents. Agree, we would need a study to figure out if Tesla driving assist suite is either incompetent at driver safety or malignant to driver safety. Perhaps this lawsuit will shed some light on it.
The driver assist is pretty damn good. It’s so good many people trust it to much. They’ll read email. Crawl in the back seat.
You can go to Amazon and buy things to make it seems like your hands are on the wheel.
Now the article did say EV are more likely to be read ended. I do wonder if that’s because of the phantom breaking.
That's the malignant part I mentioned. They trust it too much and end up running into a first responder, motorcycle or kid getting off a school bus. The aviation industry and many other industries have extensive knowledge how to avoid this very problem. Most other car companies implement systems to avoid it. Tesla just doesn't really care that much.
My thoughts were also about phantom breaking, but I don't know if it is still an issue.
My thoughts were also about phantom breaking, but I don’t know if it is still an issue.
I haven’t had an issue with it for over a year but according to others it’s still a real issue. The car will just slam on the breaks for some odd reason. I don’t want to say no reason because the car thinks there is a valid reason but there isn’t.
I’m more likely to have the issue on a sunny day, by a bridge when I’m the only car in front of me.
Since I’m a conservative, I have many fans who follow me around and downvote anything I say. It’s sad they think that gives them power over me or that I care.
As long as someone is having a discussion. They’ll never get a downvote from me.
It should be easy to use correctly and hard to use incorrectly.
The vehicle prompts you to keep your hands on the wheel and be ready to take over at any moment every time you enable FSD. Everyone using it incorrectly is doing so knowingly.
Fsd is really sketchy. It either works like a dream or wants to kill you. It’s why you have to agree to a disclaimer when using it otherwise it’ll disable.
Autopilot if a fancy cruise control. It’s pretty solid but appears to have an issue with fire trucks. I know of one fatal accident where it drove into a firetruck without enough time to react. Tesla should be liable for that. Their product failed and they removed the radar that would have prevented that scenario.
I haven’t seen the video you are mentioning. It would be stupid for them to market that as a current feature. You must keep your hands on the wheel at all times in fsd. It might accelerate you full speed into oncoming traffic and the car is fast
Yeah, a responsible CEO would take measures to remove the video, makes statements about the dangers of abusing the system, etc. instead, Tesla CEO, which is also the main marketing account, makes jokes about it.
Tesla is full of "the driver is always responsible" small print, and then promoting the reckless use of the system through influencer videos and winks from the CEO saying that the legal stuff it's just due to those peaky regulators. If it wasn't for them, you wouldn't really need to keep your hands on the wheel or pay attention. The car just drives itself.
Do you think current and prospective Tesla owners could escape the online marketing system that pumps this info into their online life? One of the reasons I started countering all the Musk bullshit was because I couldn't escape their online marketing presence. It is everywhere. I might as well have fun fighting it. I'm sure that if you've clicked any Tesla marketing links, you're inundated with their BS.
Yes? I've been considering buying an EV for a while and the only spam/advertising I see are the constant non-technology posts about Musk in technology communities such as this and on reddit. I'm not sure why you're operating under the assumption that you have some secret insider knowledge about Tesla or that anyone else is too stupid to see through some BS marketing claims from years ago.
I hope you don't buy from the company that had swastikas in the bathrooms and a place called the plantation where the black employees were forced to work.
The vehicle prompts you to keep your eyes on the road and be prepaired to take over at any moment every single time you enable this feature. To pretend that Tesla drivers don't know this "because of false advertising" is just as fasle as the advertising itself.
Tesla marketing is their chief marketer retweeting videos of people having sex on autopilot and making jokes about it, or the doctored video on their website where the driver spends the whole drive without touching the steering wheel, or Tesla's CEO driving around in a news interview with his hands of the wheel for much of the ride, or promoting influencer videos that don't follow that guidance.
Take a closer look at his leg. He’s wiggling the steering wheel to fool the safety mechanism. When you intentionally bypass a safety feature, you can’t claim ignorance
SAN FRANCISCO — As CEO Elon Musk stakes the future of Tesla on autonomous driving, lawyers from California to Florida are picking apart the company’s most common driver assistance technology in painstaking detail, arguing that Autopilot is not safe for widespread use by the public.
Evidence emerging in the cases — including dash-cam video obtained by The Washington Post — offers sometimes-shocking details: In Phoenix, a woman allegedly relying on Autopilot plows into a disabled car and is then struck and killed by another vehicle after exiting her Tesla.
Late Thursday, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration launched a new review of Autopilot, signaling concern that a December recall failed to significantly improve misuse of the technology and that drivers are misled into thinking the “automation has greater capabilities than it does.”
The company’s decision to settle with Huang’s family — along with a ruling from a Florida judge concluding that Tesla had “knowledge” that its technology was “flawed” under certain conditions — is giving fresh momentum to cases once seen as long shots, legal experts said.
In Riverside, Calif., last year, a jury heard the case of Micah Lee, 37, who was allegedly using Autopilot when his Tesla Model 3 suddenly veered off the highway at 65 mph, crashed into a palm tree and burst into flames.
Last year, Florida Circuit Judge Reid Scott upheld a plaintiff’s request to seek punitive damages in a case concerning a fatal crash in Delray Beach, Fla., in 2019 when Jeremy Banner and his Tesla in Autopilot failed to register a semi truck crossing its path.
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Even when the driver is fully responsible, the assistance software must work properly in all situations. And it must be tested fully.
In case the software makes severe mistakes surprisingly, normal drivers maybe don't have a chance to regain control. Normal drivers are not like educated test drivers.
My morality says both are accountable. The driver, and Tesla. Tesla for damage caused by their system, and the driver for and if he does not retake control of the vehicle given the chance.
But does the driver have a reasonable chance with adequate timeframe to regain control?
Like what happened with Boeing 737 Max MCAS incident, Boeing expects the pilot to disengage the trim motor in mere 4 seconds, which accoriding to a pilot "a lot to ask in an overwheming situation" or something similar.
Normal people in soon-to-crash situation are likely to freeze for a second or two, and the fear kicks up. How the driver reacts next is hard to predict. Yet, at the speed most US drivers love to go (I saw 70+ mph on freeway is the norm), the time avalible for them to make an well thought out decision I guess is quite short.
In my head, the reason is not specifically to punish the driver, but to make drivers always be aware and ready to take control again. Yes 100 ppl will have 1000 different ways to react to such a software error, but you need ppl to pay attention, and in law the only way is to use punishment. Obviously this needs to be well calculated but either you have multiple lines of defense (the software, the driver, maybe even additional safety features) or you have to remove the autonomous system.
People are naturally going to pay less attention the more cars drive for them. You can't partially automate steering. Driver assisted steering is as close as it can be before the liability needs to fall on Tesla and other software manufacturers. A car isn't a plane. The driver needs to be in control when split second decisions happen, like a child running after a ball.
If I'm paying for an autopilot, I'm not the pilot. I.e., the driver. The car is. And Tesla's marketing bullshit and lawyers are going to fail here. This does not fall under puffery. It's false advertising that's causing consumers to place undue trust in a product. And the insurance industry is quite concerned just where the liability falls in all of this as well. And as they're the ones currently having to pay out claims when Tesla wins, they have a vested interest seeing that Tesla doesn't.
It doesn't matter for practical purposes you can't make people pay attention as if driving without the actual engagement of driving. There is going to be a delay in taking over and in a lot of cases it wont matter by the time the human is effectively in control.
Imagine you are going along a straight road, not too much traffic, the speed limit is high and you are enjoying it. Suddenly your assistant software decides to turn your steering wheel hard to the left.
You will have no chance.
What have you done wrong? What is it what you are accountable for?
The article keeps calling it “Autopilot”, which is different from “Full Self Driving”.
If they are correct, then it’s all on the driver. Autopilot is just a nicer adaptive cruise control, and should be treated as such. Many cars have them, even non-smart vehicles. Even my seven year old Subaru had similar (much dumber but similar)
That being said, people seem to confuse the names of these different functionalities all the time, including throughout this thread. However, even if they were confused and meant FSD, my car has feedback to require your hands in the wheel, so I don’t understand how you can claim ignorance