some of the gymnastics in this thread are hilarious. critical support is a thing you can criticize china's various Ls while still supporting the chinese people.
I imagine that the dynamic here is reminiscent of the western media's self-censorship. Western journalists learn to conform to certain standards and topics because they understand what kinds of articles are more likely to be published and advance their careers. This is largely influenced by the preferences of media company owners and advertisers, creating a selection pressure for content producers to conform to these expectations.
In contrast, in China, censors strive to identify potentially politically sensitive content and tend to err on the side of more aggressive censorship. This is due to the understanding that being overly cautious in such matters will not result in negative consequences, encouraging a more conservative approach to content regulation.
Any social networks that have non-censored participants are. Usually, China's presence in social networks outside of its borders are for propaganda purposes.
An intelligent conversation is not one that desires oppression, economic or whatever kind. That kind of dialogue you seem to refer to is basically pseudo intellectual hipster culture, the shit you see on reddit and in liberal spaces.
It's debatelord behavior. Performance of colonizer norms mores (got the term wrong) for the adulation of rest of the genocidal settler masses at the expense of every subject-of-empire whose neck bears that invader's bootprint.
Meh, I'm not the one aggressively trying to shut down any conversation which doesn't go hard enough on ML fan service. I actually came to .ml at first hoping to find a more academically oriented leftist community which was willing to engage with topics other than "let's relitigate the cold war."
You are obviously free to dismiss any criticism of this community as "NATO chauvinist propaganda" or whatever, just as im free to roll my eyes and say that the world deserves a better class of socialist.
Not only did I not stick to ML orthodoxy while I was there (I'm more of a peacenik anarchist at heart), I wrote some fairly rude things when I found out how insane some of the tankies on lemmy can be. I hadn't expected such people to exist in reality, I had thought it was just a caricature invented by enemies of communism or something. Nonetheless they did not ban me or complain at all when I said that sort of thing.
Eventually I left because their list of blocked instances got too long for my taste.
I don't consider myself a Marxist, Leninist, or communist of any stripe and haven't had a problem so far. I'm far enough left that I refuse to call myself a liberal, but I suspect the folks who consider themselves Marxists probably think I'm too far right to self-identify as a leftist. (Although I do.)
Shitload of downvotes a time or two, but that's about it. I just wanted to be on a Lemmy instance that was honoring the fedipact, and preferred it to have an instance ethos to the left of mine rather than to the right of it.
You believe in "russian disinformation assets", like hell you are lmfao. Y'know what, let's go for a walk.
Russia may try, but it’ll never erase Ukraine nor the fact Ukraine made Russia.
No, they’re not. Populism as a whole is a horrible political strategy which benefits only a few members of the political class.
Because it takes away the puppet Russia has been building and nurturing this whole time.
There’s an easy way to end this war: either kill Putin or have Putin resign.
If by “core” you mean “civilized world”, yes.
Your words; not mine. You are no Marxist. You are a western chauvinist, a genocidal settler, and so terminally, neoliberally treat-brained that I expect you to keel over after you've been fed chocolate.
Hardly; I've never known actual communists who uncritically supported that man. It's always critical support, at best-- which is to say, he may do some things correct, but he's still an absolute affront to what came before, and honestly a problem Amerika themselves created. Advocating for wanting to kill a man in the midst of denazifying a NATO-backed neighbor, out of self-defense from NATO encirclement though; that's beyond the pale, as is everything else I've found regarding that member's carriage.
Fair enough. I don't believe this is what is happening ("denazifying a NATO-backed neighbor") and haven't seen a source suggesting it is that doesn't itself look like propaganda, but I'm also OK agreeing to disagree on that. I asked only because without further context it seemed like not supporting Putin was a big component of your comment.
I understand your position now, even if we disagree on Putin also.
Yeah no, my support of Putin is critical at best, and only because Ukraine is the last piece of the puzzle NATO needs to assemble to have Russia at checkmate gunpoint. Allowing the Five-Eyed Empire to genocide more innocent civilians is not how we solve the Putin problem.
Our problem here is, we have a guy here who stands against the voice of the people, decrying populism as "a horrible idea" like all our favorite Amerikan neoliberals; replaces "the imperial core" with 'the civilized world' in casual parlance, indicating a virulent and toxic western chauvinism at best and outright white supremacy at worst; an uncritical gamer too, so I'm erring more toward the latter than the former, I could go on til Nimrod's release day honestly.
Fair. I suspect it would be interesting to discuss these things with you over a beer, but also that it's too likely to end up feeling like an argument here, so I won't press further. Thanks for the clarification.
You don't need to support Putin to be a Marxist, him and Russia are deserving of a lot of criticism, but it's maybe a little suspicious if someone sees everything happening geopolitically right now and consistently chooses to focus their anger towards Russia.
To be honest when I read Supavillain's quotes my first reaction was also 'So they don't like Russia, who cares?", Ukrainian national identify exists, if Russia annexed western Ukraine they wouldn't be able to erase it. Non-principled populist politicians do always suck. And Russia would've loved (I assume this is about) Donetsk PR to have been their puppet.
But then those last two quotes are pretty bad. Killing Putin or even having Putin do a 180 wouldn't change anything. He'd just be replaced. And the poor countries are no less civilised.
But then those last two quotes are pretty bad. Killing Putin or even having Putin do a 180 wouldn’t change anything.
Assassination is never something I advocate, but there are a few world leaders who I would not complain about if natural causes could catch up to them sometime soon.
In a word, no. In a few more words, support for Russia (not Putin, as historical materialists don’t subscribe to great man theory) is only a partial, temporary, tactical one, in the context of imperialist liberation. Russia is still a capitalist state, though, so it’s a two stage strategy: first liberate colonized bourgeois states from colonizer states, and second revolution within those liberated bourgeois states.
Russia is an interesting case: it has already liberated itself from the post-Soviet “shock therapy” neocolonizers. This occurred during Putin’s administration, which is why he is especially hated by the US. So now the support for Russia is in the context of keeping the colonizers from recolonizing it, and supporting Russia to the extent that it helps other states liberate themselves. But Russia isn’t trying to “liberate” Ukraine, at least not all of Ukraine. It’s trying to resolve the genocidal attacks on the people of the Donbas, and it’s trying to resolve the imperialist military expansion at its border.
I can't quite tell if this is a parody, the trade union bit makes it seem sincere, but the self-importance to think that lemmy is too left for China to allow is just amazing.
I'm looking it up, and I don't see any "Tienanmin Square". Could it be "Tiananmen Square" that you're thinking of? The one protesting government corruption? Where unarmed soldiers were burned alive? Where Christian sickos were trying to get students in the line of fire to create atrocity propaganda? Surely there must be some confusion here!
You mean like that time white landowners firebombed Tulsa in response to Black Wall Street's creation and thriving? Or how about the time a PD in Philadelphia did the same thing to the MOVE Black liberation group some sixty or so years later? This shit keeps happening and the settlers think they have any room or moral high ground to talk shit 💀💀💀💀💀
What type of society do you think would allow you to burn other people to death and string up their corpses? Is it one that you think would be an improvement over modern China?
point is focus your criticisms on your own society that's 1000x worse than even the most exaggerated crimes about China, cracker. Chinese people aren't children and they can handle their own country in their own way, they don't need some forum poster condescending to them and you don't need a warped preoccupation with a country that probably has nothing to do with you
January 6th already happened but no consequences did. The US will only deploy violence if the movement is left of whatever their crazy idea of center is.
almost no one in China feels that their state is an oppressive force, they feel the opposite. The government has more than a 90% approval rating. The overwhelming majority of Chinese people view their society as legitimate and socialist. If you had any interest in democracy at all you'd respect this perspective instead of imposing your own
She's literally correct; studies from even anti-Chinese partisan sources can't help but find that satisfaction with the government is overwhelming. While you treat anti-imperialist movements like this sitting from your home in the imperial core, you're not a revolutionary or helping anybody build towards anything better, you're an active hindrance. Feel free to imbibe the actual opinions of people in China so you can understand the conditions there and not just your cracker conditioning. It's not perfect, but overthrow would be far; far worse.
What? I stand with the Chinese people against their oppressors. Criticism of an oppressive State is not criticism of its victims.
Said the anglo, eagerly parroting his three-letter-agency masters with his hands on his pearls and a breathless huff to his diction. I have never seen such eager catamites for fuckin genociders in my life; is this what living in Weimar Germany was like?
The Western 'free' population is one of the most information censored/restricted populations in the world, and yet they are flabbergasted that China and many many other nations won't allow propaganda from western oligarchs into their country. It doesn't matter that an information firewall is the single most important military defense against the Capitalist information war. That's btw why the western world are propagandizing their population for 'free speech', so we all can see that wevil China don't want free propaganda, sorry, speech.
The most amazing and Incredible is how hateful attitudes can be bought for a few propaganda dollars in the western for profit information market. So western people actually believe all the hateful things the western oligarchy says about China (and ALL the other enemies of the oligarchs).
How convenient and completely coincidental that the western population have the same opinions about nations and world leaders as the top elite.. Could it be that.. nooooo.. no no.. Western news are the BEST, and no Capitalist elite would lie about something like that to their own population, oh no no..
We see here for example the evolution of public opinion in regards to China. In 2019, the ‘Uyghur genocide’ was broken by the media (Buzzfeed, of all outlets). In this story, we saw the machine I described up until now move in real time. Suddenly, newspapers, TV, websites were all flooded with stories about the ‘genocide’, all day, every day. People whom we’d never heard of before were brought in as experts — Adrian Zenz, to name just one; a man who does not even speak a word of Chinese.
Organizations were suddenly becoming very active and important. The World Uyghur Congress, a very serious-sounding NGO, is actually an NED Front operating out of Germany […]. From their official website, they declare themselves to be the sole legitimate representative of all Uyghurs — presumably not having asked Uyghurs in Xinjiang what they thought about that.
The WUC also has ties to the Grey Wolves, a fascist paramilitary group in Turkey, through the father of their founder, Isa Yusuf Alptekin.
Documents came out from NGOs to further legitimize the media reporting. This is how a report from the very professional-sounding China Human Rights Defenders (CHRD) came to exist. They claimed ‘up to 1.3 million’ Uyghurs were imprisoned in camps. What they didn’t say was how they got this number: they interviewed a total of 10 people from rural Xinjiang and asked them to estimate how many people might have been taken away. They then extrapolated the guesstimates they got and arrived at the 1.3 million figure.
Sanctions were enacted against China — Xinjiang cotton for example had trouble finding buyers after Western companies were pressured into boycotting it. Instead of helping fight against the purported genocide, this act actually made life more difficult for the people of Xinjiang who depend on this trade for their livelihood (as we all do depend on our skills to make a livelihood).
Any attempt China made to defend itself was met with more suspicion. They invited a UN delegation which was blocked by the US. The delegation eventually made it there, but three years later. The Arab League also visited Xinjiang and actually commended China on their policies — aimed at reducing terrorism through education and social integration, not through bombing like we tend to do in the West.
Yes, that's a perfectly good explanation for why they need to block wikipedia, deviantart, archiveofourown, github, bandcamp, lemmy.ml, and mastodon.social: they're all just fronts in the Capitalist Information War
Well, they're all methods by which culturally-bankrupt, ideologically-hued art and tech from the West could potentially slip past, ESPECIALLY where settler techbros are concerned regarding github and NSApedia-- I mean wikipedia; but you're being a deliberately-obtuse settler sinophobe right now, so of course you're not going to absorb that.
Much as I enjoy arguments with strangers on the Internet, you've reminded me of my resolution to avoid the most silly ones. If you think I'm a sinophobe your judgement is very poor.
Suuure... nothing to do with the fact that they're a decadent and corrupt failed socialist dictatorship, no sir. Not at all an attempt at stopping ACTUAL communists from toppling their government, oh no.
And there's the predictable, seemingly unavoidable Western need to project their own conditions onto anyone they declare an enemy of state. If you really believe CIA-backed color revolters are the 'actual communists', you've done no investigation of your own, and as a result don't deserve the voice you confidently, ignorantly speak with.
Largely unwittingly. Most of us are labor aristocrats of the imperial core who have been propagandized our entire lives in liberal imperialist ideology.
Then there’s the media.
Joseph Kahn, the managing editor of the NYT, is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations, as are the CEOs of NPR (here’s Katherine Maher again) and PBS. These are just ones I know off the top of my head. The Council of Foreign Relations is a place where the government and the capitalist class hash out the media’s agenda. On its founding, Walter Lippman was its head of research. The title of Noam Chomsky & Edward Herman’s Manufacturing Consent came from a quote in Lippmann’s book, Public Opinion.
A couple more I can think of: CNN’s Anderson Cooper was born into money and interned at the CIA. MSNBC’s Jen Psaki, who was also born into wealth, was Obama’s and Biden’s press secretary.
It might be discussion of piracy/VPNs or something like that. China's got rules about that stuff too AFAIK. Maybe if one of the admins can read/write Simplified Chinese they could reach out to the relevant government bureau and request clarification.