Please, for the love of God, VOTE! ( pawb.social )

I don't like Biden either, but anyone with half a brain knows there are two choices in the 2020 election. If we had a sane voting system, voting third party might be worth it, but as it stands, no one but you knows your favorite candidate exists and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.

Not voting isn't going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he's publicly told Israel to "finish up their war". He'll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn't a straight cisgender male back here at home.

A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it's a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy's, and "sticking it to liberals" and "refusing to support genocide" (that's not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way -- a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.

How incredibly privileged do you have to be to see an entire national election as what will happen in the Middle East and ignore Trump's campaign promises to wipe transgender Americans off the map, and further, to not realize that the same thing will happen in the Middle East regardless of which candidate wins?

I hate Biden as much as every other leftist here. But I'll still vote for him because Trump is worse. If there's a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.

https://files.catbox.moe/cnc9p9.webp

AncientFutureNow , (edited )

As you read through these comments, note that anyone using the phrase "the liberals", followed by some condescending remark, are voting for trump.

Cowbee ,

None of them are voting for Trump. Some may be voting for a third party, some will vote for Biden.

bigfoot ,
@bigfoot@lemm.ee avatar

I've never heard an actual human talk that way who wasn't deeeep into MAGA.

Cowbee ,

Have you ever spoken to a Leftist? The Left hates Liberals, especially because historically Liberals have sided with fascists against Leftists.

bigfoot ,
@bigfoot@lemm.ee avatar

I’ve never heard an actual human talk that way who wasn’t deeeep into MAGA.

Cowbee ,

So you have never spoken to a Leftist, got it.

bigfoot ,
@bigfoot@lemm.ee avatar

I know many. We would never, ever, advocate for the sorts of things you are. Obvious Trump supporter is obvious.

Cowbee , (edited )

Never have I voted for Trump, nor have I considered it. You certainly aren't a leftist, lol. Hell, I voted for Biden last time, and probably will again, but I am not delusional and don't expect the DNC to ever move to the left via electoralism.

jayWL ,

Then please go out and talk to any ppl other than your WoW clan lmao

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

WoW is the only 2-party system that rivals the US when it comes to which party did the most war crimes

jayWL ,

haha lmao

Pan_Ziemniak ,

Or the equivalent of voting for trump, anyway. And also note that they seem very angry over the notion that ppl will vote for biden while pursuing other forms of change or at the very least advocating for them.

Grant_M ,
@Grant_M@lemmy.ca avatar

I like Biden and Harris and agree. They are the better choice by a wide margin. They've accomplished more in 3 years than decades worth of predecessors combined. Outstanding, really.

funky_rodent Mod ,
@funky_rodent@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Yo you kids can't behave, I will look this now, it's Easter and I don't want to have this burning here

peg ,

Who to vote for. Tweedledum or Tweedledee?

If the Democrats want left-wing votes they should appeal to left-wing voters rather than just take them for granted. The reality is that there's little difference between Biden and Trump. Just two sides of the same old corporatist coin.

LazyPhilosopher ,

No.

Sagittarii ,

Well, it's fine as long as you're not voting for one of the genocidal candidates.

Zummy ,

People think we have lived in a world of Democrats vs. Republicans. However, it’s always been a case of the rich vs. the not rich. The rich always wins, the rich always supports the rich, and the rich doesn’t give a flying fuck about you if you’re not a millionaire or a billionaire. So we can argue over Trump vs. Biden until we’re blue in the face. And we all know Trump is a piece of shit, but if you think Biden will do anything in the next 4 years that he didn’t do the previous 4 years you are delusional. I will vote for Biden, but I understand the outcome. Anyone that thinks Biden will do shit for them is either rich or lying to themselves.

diannetea ,

I think of it this way, I'm not voting for Biden, I'm voting against Trump

They both suck but I know which is worse for some of my friends and family

samara , (edited )

The number of people in my extended network that feel entitled to my vote is pretty mind-boggling. Fuck them. I'll vote my conscience. If more people vote third-party it will pull center politicians further in whatever direction you vote. Fuck voting against someone. Vote for something.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

You wont get to pull dems anywhere if trump enacts project 2025.

The older generation is at their tipping point before the youth take the reins. Its no coincidence those trying to push for another trump term want u to either abstain or vote third party, i.e. the spoiler effect.

Masterblaster420 ,

If more people vote third-party it will pull center politicians further in whatever direction you vote

oh you naive child. you're willing to doom us all for your 'conscience'. what a spoiled, privileged brat.

A22546889 ,

Becareful, you're throwing stones in a glass house. (edit for spelling)

Trarmp ,

Yeah, that only works if such third party is nearly as large as the republicans, which it isn't. Until then they'll sooner try to appease right wing voters.

EmptySlime , (edited )

Yeah. The Democrats have been doing this for like 30 years at this point. The people who "vote their conscience" or try to "revoke their consent" get used as a scapegoat to chase Moderates and disaffected Republicans. They punch left crying how they're not those crazy hippies and they're actually just the reasonable common sense consensus. Like bloody fucking hell this exact thing happened in 2016.

Bernie Bros got vilified for Clinton losing and did any of them look at all the people that went from Bernie in the primary to Jill Stein or even to Trump and say "Hey, maybe this Bernie guy was on to something?" and move even a little left? No, they went with Mr. Bipartisanship, because he was "more electable" to the moderates. But every 4 years like clockwork it's "No guys trust me, this time they'll learn their lesson and stop putting forward neoliberal ghouls. We just didn't threaten their power enough last time." It's maddening

peg ,

Doom you to more of the same.

oatscoop ,
@oatscoop@midwest.social avatar

You're right: nobody is entitled to your vote.

That being said, everyone else has the right to judge and comment on your choice and justification of it.

SuperApples ,
@SuperApples@lemmy.world avatar

I'm from a country with ranked choice voting. We can vote for our preferred third-party candidate and it's not only fine but better. Even if they don't get in, they will get a portion of government money for help with campaigning in future elections, and our vote for the first viable candidate will be counted instead.

In the USA this is totally not the case. Your electoral system is designed to prevent third-party votes from meaning anything. As an anarchist who hates the politics of both neoliberal US major parties, I would still vote democrat, because a third-party vote is literally a wasted vote. It does not influence the 2 major parties in any way. They know there is no real threat from minor parties or independents unless they have massive overwhelming majority support.

Change the system through political action, community engagement, and spreading information. This vote will not change a thing unless it's for a major party, and only really if you're in a swing state. It's shit but true.

Zink ,

I like the line from the image in the OP that says how a vote is not some kind of statement of ideals, full endorsement, or marriage contract, it is your chance to influence the outcome if you care to.

I always feel compelled to make the pragmatic choice because I do very much care to influence the races that will have real effects on me or my fellow citizens.

And it sucks, because it does feed into and perpetuate the first past the post two-party system. But our electoral system is set up to be extremely difficult to change.

megopie ,

If moderates really don’t want trump to win so bad, maybe they should make some real commitments to policy changes that the left want, not just half baked, watered down “market based” solutions that get shredded to a skeleton in committee.

Moderates can scream their lungs out all they want, but talk is cheap, and if they want the left on side they should earn that and not act so entitled to their support. Trump is bad, he shouldn’t win, but why is it on the left to keep him from winning? Why is it never the moderates fault for failing to hold up their end of the coalition?

Pan_Ziemniak ,

Bc the left has a really hard time coming together and we wont get another election if we dont.

SlopppyEngineer ,

The left never had a good story. The right will be there, proclaiming how kicking the immigrants out or whatever will make the world better. It might not be true, but it gets attention and votes. The left will tell you how this list of 50 law changes will make things less bad.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

The right relies on ppl to be exploited so they dont have the time nor the expedience in critical thinking to be able to tell what needs be done. This is why its important to maintain some amount of sympathetic perspective towards others. The left leaning neoliberals i meet arent enemies. They are victims of propaganda. Opening up lines of communication, building bridges, showing u understand their side by voting for damage control, these earn sympathies.

juicy ,

Stop pretending to be on the left.

https://midwest.social/comment/8554707:

“Support genocide” in this case means not abandoning a 70 year ally when our other allies are already worried we are fickle and support or dont support them based on whos in charge every 4 years.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

Lol. Someone doesnt understand geopolitics.

We have an open trade agreement with israel. They want to buy, we say how much. I never said i supported it, but if ur curious ive been railing against the apartheid state for 15 years now simce back before i was a leftist. Doesnt change that there is no candidate thatd be capable of ending that policy on a whim.

VinnyDaCat , (edited )

Let's be real, this isn't about people not voting anymore.

Those of us who have resolved to vote Biden despite much of our displeasure towards the handling of Israel/Gaze were going to do so anyways. You won't convince those who have decided not to vote this way either.

Screaming at people to vote will not make them want to vote. Worst case scenario you piss them off enough that the spite vote against you. People aren't puppets for you to control by telling them what's in their bests interests and demanding they follow through. You have to work with them in a pleasant manner if you genuinely want to convince them.

But again, I don't think this is about people not voting anymore. Some people are genuinely unhappy that others are unhappy with their options for candidates. So many people on the moderate left can't be satisfied with the fact that they have such a firm grip on intelligent voters who understand the status quo. It's not enough for them to know that our options are bleak and that we have to vote for someone supporting genocide, versus letting someone who would openly participate in genocide get in office. You genuinely want us to shut up and stop complaining and to stop criticizing the current administration.

Also, the amount of people I've seen discuss implementing mandatory voting as if it wasn't a trait of an authoritarian government is insane. Maybe if our voting process had more options it wouldn't be authoritarian, but as it stands now making voting mandatory would be little more than coercion.

megopie ,

Mandatory voting usually just amounts to requiring people show up at the polls, they can spoil ballots or write in joke candidates.

It’s not exactly authoritarian, but it wouldn’t really change the situation like some think it would.

Really, the moderate left needs to get it through their fucking heads that the left aren’t their fucking rebound date when the moderate right shits the bed.

If they want the left’s vote, if they fucking want to keep trump from winning, they need to appeal to voters not just patronizingly talk down to them.

The onus is as much on the moderates as it is on the left.

VinnyDaCat ,

I consider it more so authoritarian in this context due to the expectations of those demanding it.

Joke candidates/blank ballots would not stand with them. Part of voting is being able to withhold your vote, to utilize your vote as leverage to ensure your representatives work for you, and that's a big freedom that's would be stripped away here. You're right that it probably wouldn't change much though. You'd potentially do more damage by having uninformed voters who wouldn't otherwise show up submitting ballots.

You summed up most of my feelings rather nicely though.

Personally, I don't believe the moderates truly hate Trump as much as they say they do. In fact, they appreciate him. He is the perfect looming threat that they can use to coerce us into voting for them without them having to compensate or do any meaningful work towards addressing voter's concerns.

Either that, or they are genuinely tone-deaf and out of touch. Take your pick I suppose.

megopie ,

Actions speak louder than words, and the actions of moderates and the democratic establishment don’t seem like those who genuinely want to prevent trump from winning again if it requires them to make concessions or go against lobbyists.

AWistfulNihilist ,

The DNC loves running against Trump. He's the most effective propoganda tool since communism. The fact that I've seen this stupid fucking meme on every possibly meme channel in like 4 to 8 hour increments is legit demented.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

If we (leftists) want ranked choice voting, we should probably vote against the guy who doesnt want any more elections after this.

The democratic base is aging just as the gop is. The base they will have to cater towards to survive, is going to be more progressive. We need to survive til then to take that situation and use it to our ends to shift the overton window as far left as she goes.

juicy ,

Stop pretending to be a leftist. You support the genocide.

https://midwest.social/comment/8554707:

“Support genocide” in this case means not abandoning a 70 year ally when our other allies are already worried we are fickle and support or dont support them based on whos in charge every 4 years.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

Since u ignored it when i first wrote it to spam ur bs like the bad faith troll u are, here it is for everyone else,

Lol. Someone doesnt understand geopolitics.

We have an open trade agreement with israel. They want to buy, we say how much. I never said i supported it, but if ur curious ive been railing against the apartheid state for 15 years now simce back before i was a leftist. Doesnt change that there is no candidate thatd be capable of ending that policy on a whim.

Masterblaster420 ,

Screaming at people to vote will not make them want to vote. Worst case scenario you piss them off enough that the spite vote against you.

if people are that petty and childish, then fuck it. let them live in their spite world alongside the sociopathic, conservative right. i'm so sick of the lack of humanity in america.

Highlybaked ,

Completely agree, I also think it's baffling people equate the whole gaza thing to Biden, good luck finding any American president who doesn't grab his ankles for israel

EndlessNightmare ,

Indeed, you've spelled it out plainly: there is no vote option to end the U.S. funding of Israel's genocide in Gaza.

I can either make a vote that won't end it, or I can make a vote that won't end it (and may actually make it worse, as you alluded) and will also lead to significant negative consequences for many groups of people here.

If there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.

Not just trans, but homosexual, non-white, non-religious, women.

AVincentInSpace OP ,

THANK YOU.

juicy ,

There are several options if you refuse to vote for genocide. You have just decided you don't mind.

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

you guys just dont want to get it do you?

i dont care about making you feel better with your right wing democrat. go actually do something about trump if you care so much.

AVincentInSpace OP , (edited )

I don't want to get it?

Half the comments in this thread consist exclusively of arguments addressed in the original post, and when I reply explaining it more simply they admit point blank to not reading my response and insist on continuing to not vote... and I'm the one who doesn't want to get it?

Sweet lord, there is no talking to you people.

I don't feel good about the democrat. I don't want to feel good about the democrat. But unlike some people I could name I will not assist in putting a self-professed dictator back in power.

What do you propose I do about Trump? Assassinate him?

umbrella , (edited )
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

nobody is even advocating not to vote, but you guys keep insisting thats what we are saying. go vote if you want to.

we are just saying scribbling on a ballot and casting it for a right winger wont change any outcome. biden is just as fascist, hes just not bragging about it. the us is already not democratic, this is just theater.

they wont let you vote their power away. you want change go organize with any leftist organization at all, strike, disrupt and disobey collectively with them. socialism is the only thing that was ever capable of stopping fascists.

the rich seem to want trump anyway and its already too late to stop him, but he doesnt matter if you force their hand instead of just apathetically voting every 4 years like it will save you from fascism.

cobra89 ,

When morons like you throw around the word fascist it loses all meaning. Fucking too busy calling Biden a fascist to prevent the actual fascist from gaining office. The irony is palpable.

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

study the definition of fascism, you might find out it didnt even start with him.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

"Too late to stop him(trump)"

Really? Bc it sure seems like it aint.

The spoiler effect means voting for third party is essentially a vote for trump, so we must vote for the lesser evil. Look to the Spanish anarchists. Theyve a politically engaged political party since the late 1800s bc the second tenet they list is to make life more tenable under the current (in their eyes) transitory system.

We must pursue direct action, establish systems of mutual aid, and we must vote to keep the russian agent from criminalizing leftists for thoughtcrime.

Every available avenue is to be taken, bc we dont get to be picky, and every leftward push should be embraced regardless of how far or little it pushes. Its the sum of parts that counts. You think MLK jr would refuse to stage disruptive protests bc the man standing next to him might not yet be disillusioned with capital as much as he? That is what solidarity means. Solidarity to even those that u disagree with.

wanderingmagus ,

Honestly? Posts like yours make me consider voting for Trump just to show the world the consequences of your attitude. Maybe after you and everyone you love end up hunted down by the death squads or put on a train, the idea that maybe, just maybe, you should've reconsidered while you still had the chance will enter your head. Fuck it, I already enlisted in the military, might as well wear the jackboot while I'm at it.

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

Least psycho boot boy.

wanderingmagus ,

Y'all were the ones saying not even to bother voting because the whole thing's rigged and hopeless, so if you can't beat 'em, fuck it, join 'em. As long as you're not in a position of power when the big guy gets taken down, it doesn't look like anyone ever cares, and you might even get a standing ovation in Canada.

DingoBilly ,

So many dumb Americans here not voting. Cutting off your legs so you can hold the moral high ground. Moronic.

megopie ,

Why is the onus on the left? How come it’s never on moderates for being such poor coalition partners that knee cap their proposals at every opportunity?

DingoBilly ,

Why is the onus on the left to vote left to promote left values? Because that's how voting works?

I'm not sure how to answer that question. Reword it as "Why is the onus on the right to elect a right-wing candidate?" maybe to see.

megopie ,

Right now, voting for the current set of candidates will not support the values of the left, it will promote the values of the moderate middle. if the moderate middle wants to prevent another term of trump, they need to give real commitments to policy agendas that will convince disaffected voters to show up. Threatening them with another term of trump clearly is not working, telling them that they should be grateful for what they already got clearly is not working.

If the Democratic Party wants disaffected voters to show up, then the democrat establishment needs to work to earn those votes. If they do not then trump will win, and it will be as much their fault as the people who didn’t vote.

DingoBilly ,

Sure. But it's a two way street. Climate change is important but you don't realistically solve it by stopping everything coal powered tomorrow. You have to gradually introduce it.

I don't know if it's a younger generation thing, but they're not patient and demand change now when it's just not realistic. Change is glacially slow. Voting in something that's not ideal is better than voting in something completely opposite.

The more you allow that left or moderate side to win, the more the axis changes towards it, which is still a win if you're left/moderate as it moves it away from the right. It's this last bit some people don't understand.

megopie ,

Change is slow, and you will get none if politicians do not make concrete commitments. And we don’t get any concrete commitments from them unless they think they need them to win.

Voting is not enough, and only voting does not free one from complicity. Especially if the side one votes for loses because they refused to make commitments that convinced voters to show up for them. Right now, the democrats are not making commitments that are getting voters out. And condescending to other voters because you think they are naïve does not get voters out ether, if anything, it might push them away.

If we want to prevent trump we need to get the Democratic Party to make commitments that will get voters to show up. Not tell people they are dumb for demanding more from their government than “not being trump”.

maynarkh ,

I don't know how to tell you, but dude, your country (and many others) is literally on fire every year. Even if we did something very drastic, like keep up the COVID lockdowns, Florida is going to be flooded. The United States will lose towns, villages, cities, territory it will never recover. The country will be full of climate refugees. It is like a war where you can't shoot back. I don't know how else to put it.

How long have you been trying to reform healthcare? And it's still not getting better, is it? Only maybe "glacially". Trump's regressive changes weren't glacial. He undid half a century of alliances and trust in years. Sure, vote Biden, but voting Biden is not a complete solution, it's not even a band aid. It's just the saner half of the US trying to hide from the next bullet.

So no, glacial change - "slowly but surely" - won't cut it. We need radical change, right now, and maybe we will end up with something liveable in 25 years.

braxy29 ,

throughout reading this thread, what echoes in my mind over and over is this - "the perfect is the enemy of the good." and honestly, right now i'm defining "good" as "not-fascism," "not-Trump," "not the man who will burn it all down as quickly as possible."

yes, i'm hiding from the next bullet. i'm hiding myself, my family, my friends, my co-workers and clients. my choices are the man with the loaded gun who has TOLD us what to expect, and any other possible alternative.

for now, i happen to think this is GOOD ENOUGH, and those who would sacrifice that on principle have not really imagined what is very likely to happen next. i'm sorry i can't save the people of Gaza, but i can try to save those i know and love.

Cowbee ,

Biden isn't left, that's why they are asking why thr DNC feels entitled to Leftist votes while refusing to concede.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

The onus is on us all to keep democracy alive.

It is on us to take all available paths towards alleviating the situation. Voting is the easiest and least u can do. Past that, theres mutual aid and direct action. Take as many paths as u can, but any and all leftward movement must be embraced.

The "moderates" u mention are the future right wing of the country. The gop is on a sinking ship. Their base is dying (of old age and at twice the rate due to covid), and the youth lean increasingly left. Our time is upon us, but right now trump represents an existential threat to life as we know it. He is a hostile foreign agent and those paths open to us will suddenly close under him.

juicy ,

Why are you in here cosplaying as a leftist when you support the genocide?

https://midwest.social/comment/8554707:

“Support genocide” in this case means not abandoning a 70 year ally when our other allies are already worried we are fickle and support or dont support them based on whos in charge every 4 years.

Pan_Ziemniak ,

Lol. Someone doesnt understand geopolitics.

We have an open trade agreement with israel. They want to buy, we say how much. I never said i supported it, but if ur curious ive been railing against the apartheid state for 15 years now simce back before i was a leftist. Doesnt change that there is no candidate thatd be capable of ending that policy on a whim.

hobbes_ ,

It is on both the moderates and the left? Because neither group is enough on its own to win?

You keep asking this question and I find it very hard to believe you don't already know the answer.

Masterblaster420 ,

who cares about placing blame? you sound like a kid crying to your mommy. JUST DO THE RIGHT THING GODDAMNIT.

A22546889 ,

Because of how you're acting guess which way my vote is going?

Grabthar ,

You aren't voting at all, comrade.

lemmywinks ,

I'll be voting for Kennedy.

Tinidril ,

Voting for Kennedy on principle. Fuck,that is hilarious. Kennedy is more pro-Israel than even Biden, and he is a complete whack job besides.

zbyte64 ,
@zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/pictrs/image/4360e423-b371-45cf-85b8-377088ad3533.jpeg

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