The Hundred Years' War on Palestine
A History of Settler Colonial Conquest and Resistance, 1917-2017 by Rashid Khalidi
A landmark history of one hundred years of war waged against the Palestinians from the foremost US historian of the Middle East, told through pivotal events and family history.
@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine
When the title and subtitle are so politically-skewed, I can't imagine this book would give an objective overview of this complex and bloody conflict.
The choice of phrases such as "War on Palestine" and "Settler Colonial Conquest" suggests to me a bias. All historians are biased, of course, but this seems somewhat excessive for academic objectivity.
Then again, I haven't read the book. Mr. Khalidi might present a well-constructed and fact-supported narrative that justifies the strong phrases on the cover, in which case I will gladly admit my mistake.
@ymishory@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine Those phrases suggest to me a certain narrative, one based in an anti-colonialist perspective, similar to what we see with examinations of other settler-colonial societies (South Africa, Australia etc). And yes, I agree, all historians are telling a story from a certain position. Mr Khalidi's academic credentials suggest that the content will be somewhat rigorous.
From what Google says, Mr. Khalidi is an accomplished academic, and I have the utmost respect for his credentials.
As I wrote, the book may present a coherent and fact-based narrative that justifies the title and subtitle, but that would have to include some outstanding claims and evidence.
@ymishory@Kirilov@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine I think Khalid's claims are not exceptional, but rather mainstream in academic (not populist) circles, given the numbers of other authors who propose a similar thesis. See eg Ilan Pappe, Schlomo Sand, Edward Said.
@Kirilov@ymishory@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine Ilan Pappe's writing is certainly in the same ballpark. Perhaps you haven't bothered reading his work? But back to the main point - the title of Khalid's book reflects the very real history of Palestine. You may not like that, but that is fact.
@Kirilov@KarunaX@ymishory@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine What am I not getting here? Study at advanced academy isn’t trustworthy simply because a large number of people say so. If anything, that high education isn’t trustwortht has lately become a rather popular argumentum ad populum..
@gimulnautti@Kirilov@KarunaX@ymishory@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine My point is they don’t address the actual arguement. They address the person making it. It’s also an appeal to accomplishment. By addressing the context and not the point the person is engaging in sophistry and not dialogue focused on understanding the truth. Logical fallacies are tools to understand when someone is hijacking our emotions
Argumentum ad populum and fallacy of authority are not the same, you pompous prick.
You are making general opinions on a book you haven't read, based only in your inability to grasp the title.
3.You wouldn't call a book titled "History of World War 2" biased. Why do you call a book that tells the story of the 100 years resistance to colonialism in Palestine biased? It was a war, by any definition
I don't want to converse about logical fallacies. I'm more interested in debating the correctness of Khalidi's title, which was the topic a few posts back, when you jumped in.
@Kirilov@argumento@gimulnautti@KarunaX@ymishory@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine
Yes, and saying you expect a rigorous work from an historian with good academic credentials is not a logical fallacy.
If we followed your logic, we should discard all opinions coming from experts renowned in their particular field, because that would be an appeal to authority.
Basing one's assessment on solid work is not the same as citing a public figure with no expert knowledge on the issue.
Why don't you illuminate us with an explanation of how a fallacy of authority fits the statement "I know Rashid Khalidi has good academic credentials as an historian, I expect his work to be rigorous". I'd be delighted to read your explanation.
You implore me, I comply. The link you provided say the same thing I just told you, the logical fallacy you mention consists in appealing to people with no expert knowledge on the issue, and therefore does not apply to this particular case, as I keep telling you, since Khalidi is a qualified expert.
@Kirilov@gimulnautti@KarunaX@ymishory@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine
If they did, you could easily demonstrate it, since it's logic, instead of just claiming there is a logical fallacy.
Karuna said he expected a rigorous work, because the author is known to produce rigorous work. That's perfect logic.
@Kirilov@ymishory@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine Pointing out that an author has relevant and credible academic qualifications is, and should be, one part of the debate about the validity of the position an author subscribes to. In the end, an argument should stand on its own merits. Yet filtering out the dross from the meritorious through such strategies as relying on qualified authors is one way to avoid being inundated with raw opinion.
@ymishory@KarunaX@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine When a description of reality sounds biased to you, the easiest explanation, and the most correct one, is that it's your own bias the one that keeps you from engaging with reality.
@ymishory@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine no és un conflicte tan complex com per entendre l'objectiu sionista, els seus mètodes i qui el recolza. Amb molt poc esforç i des de l'honestedat estic segur que tu també podràs entendre-ho. No sé pas, en canvi, si ho podràs reconèixer públicament.
The conflict is long, multi-faceted, emotional, and very complex. Anyone who suggests it is simple to understand, let alone solve, either doesn't know enough about history and the current geopolitical setup, or is trying to sell something.
Unfortunately, an honest examination of facts will get you nowhere in today's culture of inch-deep discussions 😞
@ymishory@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine per més que hi intervinguin multiplicitat de factors i agents, precissament perquè tenim molts exemples històrics, en essència, no costa entendre amb facilitat que està passant a #Palestina: un procés de colonització concebut a Europa i promogut des d'#Occident pretenent resoldre un problema europeu, de blancs supremacistes, desplaçanr-lo a un indret on habiten persones que no hi tenen cap responsabilitat.
I'm using Google Translate to read your text, so I apologize for any miscommunication.
This conflict is territorial, religious, cultural and ethnic. To diminish the Zionist side of it to colonialism is a disservice to history, and ignores the history of antisemitism and nationalistic trends in 19th century in Europe, which influenced prominent Jewish leaders of the time.
This is just an example of the simplification I mentioned earlier.
Per remarcar un detall de la teva aportació: els palestins són semites. No sé a què treu cap parlar d'antisemitisme pel què està succeint pròpiament a #Palestina.
Per cert, aviat no quedaran masses palestins, simplement per inanició, i no caldrà fer compendre al món tanta complexitat. Aviat serem més feliços, oi?
In 19th century Europe, antisemitism manifested mainly in the persecution of Jews. If Arabs lived there, I'm sure they would've suffered the same fate as their Semite brothers.
AFAIK there were almost 2 million Israeli-Arabs and nearly 3 million Palestinians living in the west bank, so they're not going anywhere soon.
Personally, it brings me no joy when another human suffers, and I pray that the endless violence will cease ASAP 🙏
@ymishory@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine jo només entendre la justícia si es restitueix #Palestina i és Palestina qui decideix com s'ha de viure a Palestina –a més de deixar d'assassinar, destruir i ocupar (són fets abastament repetits) amb tot d'excuses "complexes"–.
We've gone off-track, and in my experience social media discussions on these topics are pointless and get nowhere, so I'll resist the urge to retort and leave it at that.
@ymishory@vmateusimeon@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine to a large extent, zionism, from its earliest inception, internalized and incorporated 19th century antisemitic tropes. It applied those to "ghetto jews", ie non-zionist or even anti-zionist Jews. And later when the State of Israel was founded, this antisemitic core of zionism targeted mizrahi Jews, most notably Yemenite Jews in its white ashkenormativity. You forget that up to the Shoah the vast majority of Jews was non-zionist.
@ymishory@vmateusimeon@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine but one of the problems is that Zionism comes from xenophobic Jews. The same xenophobic Jews that funded the NSDAP (they where that stupid) to stop Polish POOR Jews migrating to Germany.
Those Jews are the equivalent of the MAGA crowd.
And don't take my word on it. Do your research. It's worse than it looks.
Your reply doesn't address my previous post, but rather makes controversial statements and sends me to do research. If you really want to convince, please stay on topic and present a credible, preferably impartial, source for such statements.
@ymishory@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine @palestine
Balance is in short supply, #ZionistSettler advocacy machine prohibits it
A derogatory mention of #Israel results in torrents of conflation equating criticism w antisemitism, it isn't
The solution is not complex, it's very simple, time
In time the #IsraeliSettlerProject will fail
western support dwindles
millennial+ support is zero
demographic supporting #zionistsettler projects is dying off
In 30/40 yrs time #israel will cease to exist
That's one possible scenario, which stems from very certain debatable assumptions.
The problem with predicting the future is with the unknowns and the impact of seemingly inconsequential elements on the course of history. For example, the climate crisis will likely change the geopolitical situation in the middle east immeasurably. How would Israel cope? Hard to say decades in advance. It might emerge stronger, or take a hit.
@ymishory@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine
I remind you Israel's the only nation on earth that campaigns for VERY its existence, perpetually seeking legitimacy
No other nation does
Thats how precarious the Israeli's feel #israelisettlerroject is on borrowed time, always was in 1948 they should've pushed all Palestinians out Their #settlercolonialism might've succeeded #Settlerprojects always hinge on replacing the indigenous populations
This is no different.
This conflict is territorial, religious, cultural and ethnic. To diminish the Zionist side of it to colonialism is a disservice to history. It dismisses the decades that shaped the area before 1948, which saw a steady rise in tensions and violence between Jews and Arabs under the Ottoman Empire and later the UK.
BTW, if the goal of Israel was to replace the Palestinians, the numbers show it's doing a very poor job at that...
If that were true, it would have been resolved decades ago, one way or another.
But if you somehow have a new insight that explains the current quagmire both sides have dug themselves into, or you have some simple solution - I'm all ears. Don't be shy.
@ymishory@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine it could have been, but the State of Israel blocked that on more than one occasion, even as early as 1948. It's simple. The occupation must end, Israel as a Jewish state must cease to exist. A right of return for Palestinians and substantial reparations for loss of property and life. And I'm looking forward to a country, between the river and the sea, in which ALL citizens have full rights. May it happen speedily and in our days, amen
Your first sentence - I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean there. What has Israel blocked and how? What was the situation before 1948? Please clarify.
As for your suggested solution, can you elaborate on what needs to happen to bring about this utopia?
@ymishory@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine The genociding needs to stop. That's perhaps the easiest to accomplish right now. A ceasefire. Not a "pause". A ceasefire. And Israel needs to loose its "Europeanness". Because that's what zionism ultimately is. The project to make Jews into Europeans. Unfortunately the core European values is genocide.
@ymishory@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine Do you for one moment think that things can go on like this inside Israel, for Israel? It's unsustainable. Let go or be dragged. I look at Israel and I see a deranged and genocidal nation.
@ymishory@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine That's what's happening now isn't it? Or no, rather, Israel's genociding is generously funded by the USA and morally justified by most "civilized nations" that claim that the Israelis are the victim here because they're jewish and it's kind of an ethnic thing. Just outrageous. Meanwhile the contracts on the natural gas exploration just off the coast of Gaza have been signed. So. [shrugs shoulders]
You keep going back to describing how bad things are, when we've already agreed that it's a bloody mess.
I'm trying to understand your endgame. If, as you say, it's just a matter of time and there's nothing to be done right now, why waste the time and energy on endless debates?
If, on the other hand, there's some course of action that could change things for the better, what is it?
@ymishory@anantagd@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine There is no single answer. Probably the only viable solution is a single, multi-ethnic secular state. While I would prefer all the Zionists to be expelled, this is unlikely to happen, and we will just have to wait until all the European “Israelis” leave & return to Europe/US etc. I expect many will, just as the majority of racist South Africans left after disposing of that colonial state.
I think a key difference in Israel vs South Africa is that Israel literally thinks that land was given to them by God.
It's something that they can't just pack up and go to a different country for, which means the Jews have to learn to live with their Palestinian neighbors and vice versa.
But if the government is secular and doesn't favor one religion over another, I think most of the people would fall in line with that.
@paninid@kinyutaka@KarunaX@ymishory@anantagd@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine The Zionists never wanted the 1967 borders. All their “agreements” were just a ploy to kick the peace can as far down the road as possible, allowing more time to steal more of Palestine. I suspect Rabin was one of the few who was sincerely interested in a peaceful resolution. So yes, reason enough to manipulate a whacko nut job into killing him.
@kinyutaka@KarunaX@ymishory@anantagd@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine Most Israelis are secular. Ironic that a people who don’t believe in g-d believe he gave them someone else’s land. Down here in reality, we know it was the British who exceeded their mandate and “gave” Palestine to European Zionists, not g-d.
@ymishory@anantagd@appassionato@bookstodon@palestine lots of problems are simple and yet unresolved, from misogyny to racism to climate change. The problem usually has more to do with whether there's vested interests who don't want it to be solved