US Supreme Court sets April 25 Trump criminal immunity argument ( www.reuters.com )

The U.S. Supreme Court has set April 25 as the date it will hear Donald Trump's claim of presidential immunity from prosecution on charges related to his efforts to overturn his 2020 election loss - the last day of oral arguments of its current term.

The court released its updated argument calendar a week after it agreed to take up the case and gave the former president a boost by putting on hold the criminal prosecution being pursued by Special Counsel Jack Smith. It previously had disclosed which week it would hear the matter but had not given the precise date.

The justices will review a lower court's rejection of Trump's claim of immunity from prosecution because he was president when he took actions aimed at reversing President Joe Biden's election victory over him.

undercrust ,

I see this as a win-win.

Presidents have full immunity? Biden takes a shotgun to Trump and immediately resigns before impeachment. Maybe even a murder-suicide for funsies.

Presidents don't have full immunity? Trump goes to jail for the rest of his miserable life.

queue ,
@queue@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

That would imply Biden/democrats have any fucking balls. I would actually love it if Biden's team just went "Full immunity? Fuck it, we ball." and just go full hog wild and just push for wild things to actually help people and punish the literal fucking nazis.

But it would be cool.

HaywardT ,

Then head to the court, just to make sure they don't reverse themselves.

ObviouslyNotBanana ,
@ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world avatar

If the president has total immunity, couldn't Biden just pack the court without any process? Why not just say he is the court now?

conditional_soup ,

"Oh, the president has immunity?" Asks the reaper drone as it prepared for takeoff

QuarterSwede ,
@QuarterSwede@lemmy.world avatar

This definitely won’t be an either or outcome. The SCOTUS rarely gives opinions that black and white (that’s why it’s there in the first place).

44razorsedge ,
@44razorsedge@lemmy.world avatar

This is exactly my read of the circumstances: Trump's bought and paid for SCOTUS says he WAS and WILL BE immune to all crimes committed while President. That automatically gives the sitting President until Jan 20 2025 to assassinate Trump. With impunity.
"Hello, Seal Team Six? I have a job for you..."

FiniteBanjo ,

That's exactly the problem. We want a definitive answer. Instead what we're getting is a hearing in April... and then June... August comes around... Suddenly there won't be a trial before the election and we risk electing an Autocrat.

afraid_of_zombies ,

They will just narrowly craft it so it doesn't apply to Biden and there is nothing stopping them from overruling what they already did if it came down to it.

You can't shame the shameless and as long as the Pope is calling the shots the court will do what he says to.

agitatedpotato ,

Biden wouldn't have the balls to so much as j walk even with immunity.

gmtom ,
@gmtom@lemmy.world avatar

Americans, please for the love of all that is good left in the world you need to organise the biggest protest your country has ever seen for that date.

It's not an exaggeration to day that the future of the wester world relies on you guys not bring apathetic for once and doing more than leaving comments on lemmy or reddit or wherever.

If its at all possible for you to make it down to Washington on that day, you need to. Or else you are sending the message, loud and clear, that you don't really give a shit that a rougue supreme court with openly and proudly corrupt judges has taken control of your country and gets to make the laws whatever the fuck they want.

Or if you can't make it to DC organise a local protest. Please just do fucking SOMETHING.

Dark_Arc ,
@Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg avatar

Literally, it would do nothing. The supreme court will decide what it decides... They don't need to be elected.

What does matter is voting in November and getting people to vote for Biden again rather than some third party nutter that won't even come close to 10% of the vote.

Pipoca ,

The last three third party candidates who won more than one state were Strom Thurmond, George Wallace and Theodore Roosevelt.

The first two won the south on account of regional anger at the civil rights movement.

Roosevelt split the vote. 50.6% of the country voted for the Republican candidate or a former Republican, but the Democrat won a landslide with only 41% of the popular vote and 81% of the electoral college vote.

The closest a third party candidate has ever come to winning is Breckenridge, who got 18% of the popular vote and 23.8% of the EC vote running as a Southern Democrat because the south didn't like Stephen Douglas (who got 29.5% of the popular vote but only won a single state).

Voting third party basically doesn't work. Any time its been significant, it's just caused a spoiler effect.

Veraxus ,

SCOTUS are corrupt, unaccountable dictators. They do not care what the American people think. They don't care what the Constitution says. They don't fear the American people. They rule by fiat.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Well Pope Francis might die before that happens so there is at least a chance the Catholic Supreme Court will do the right thing. Here is hoping the Pope doesn't have much longer!

june ,

They’re going to say that in this specific situation he has immunity but will severely limit the scope of the ruling so that it doesn’t apply to any other president ever.

Calling it now.

afraid_of_zombies ,

You might as well call August being warm or Christmas gifts of socks underwhelming.

ShaggySnacks ,

Christmas gifts of socks underwhelming.

Woah there. Gifts of socks as a child, terrible gift. Gifts of socks as an adult, best Christmas gift.

shalafi ,

I'm happy they agreed to hear this, we need a solid ruling. I'm kinda OK with putting it 2-months out. Seems reasonable for such a weighty case. I am worried as to how long they take to make a ruling after hearing arguments.

They've already shot Trump down twice, they're hardly on his side, so no reason to drag this out. My main concern is they issue a ruling so precise that it's blurry. Does that make sense?

In other words, "Nah, he can't do that, but..."

QuarterSwede ,
@QuarterSwede@lemmy.world avatar

Oh that’s definitely going to be it. Their job isn’t anything like a normal court and people don’t understand that or like it. Radiolab did a great series on the SCOTUS and how and why they make their decisions years ago. Really explained what their function actually is.

girsaysdoom ,

My main concern is they issue a ruling so precise that it's blurry.

That sounds a lot like the constitutional amendment they just removed the teeth from. I'm scared to think how they will screw this one over; especially since we have an authoritarian on the table.

tacosplease ,

The DC courts had a bullet proof response already. SCOTUS should have let that stand and denied to hear any part of the immunity issue. That's what all the legal experts expected because it's the obvious correct choice.

Instead SCOTUS broadened the question and added more things to rule on than what the DC appeals court stated in their ruling. That's not how law is supposed to work.

The conservative majority is forcing this to delay the DC case. There is little to no chance the DC trial finishes before the election - as a direct result of the Supreme Court's decision here.

The Supreme Court decided Bush v Gore in a matter of days, but we're waiting several weeks before they even start listening to immunity arguments? It's bullshit. The delay is the point.

radiohead37 ,

The Supreme Court is sabotaging the Trump indictments by delaying a decision. The goal is to delay trial so he can’t be convicted so close to the election. This court is just an extension of the party.

shalafi ,

This court is just an extension of the party.

Oh bull. I've been collecting examples of the Court NOT acting conservatively, let alone acting partisan. I'm no fan of this Court, and I loathe Thomas, but they make some surprising calls. If they were an organ of the GOP, none of these cases would have passed, OR, they would have heard them to shoot down the lower court rulings.

https://old.lemmy.world/comment/8055718

There was an earlier ruling where they shot Trump down, but I can't find it for all the noise over recent events.

I'm kinda OK with them putting off the call on the immunity case, it's a weighty one, but I'm scared as hell they'll take too long to ponder the arguments. Calling it now: They reject Trump's claim. Just like they allowed him on the ballot, and the unanimity was telling, I think they understand the chaos that would ensue.

DarkNightoftheSoul , (edited )
@DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz avatar

Whoa, bud- careful with those counter-hivemind opinions. You'll get slapped for wrongthink around here.

edit: Case-in-point: my ratio right now.

Dkarma ,

Yeah imagine thinking the 9th and 14th amendments matter... Silly liberals

DarkNightoftheSoul , (edited )
@DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz avatar

is that an echo i hear? echo...echo...echo...

I don't suppose you could explain how the 14th amendment works in the relevant case to give the contrary opinion to the unanimous court? I'm with the guy above, they suck and are awful, but not wrong on this one in particular. That you think the 9th amendment is somehow relevant is... telling.

edit: crickets. Crickets and downvotes. Nope, no hivemind punishing wrongthink here. Nosiree.

Aleric ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

    •
    DarkNightoftheSoul , (edited )
    @DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz avatar

    So, explaining how the 14th amendment works or how the 9th is relevant to his case is... beneath you. I'm painfully illogical for asking for an explanation. "the hivemind will downvote you for having a contrary opinion" is a lazy argument(?), despite direct incontrovertible evidence to support my claim.

    I made no arguments, I asked a question and asserted a claim.

    Thank you for deigning to reply, but I reject this as being of very poor quality, and mostly projection.

    DarkNightoftheSoul ,
    @DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz avatar

    for your edification

    ObviouslyNotBanana ,
    @ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world avatar

    People should stop with this hivemind stuff. It's okay to feel something and be corrected. It's fine to learn.

    DarkNightoftheSoul , (edited )
    @DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz avatar

    wow yeah I totally didn't get slapped for wrongthink by the hivemind, you guys sure showed me with this "correction"

    what am I supposed to have learned from this?

    shalafi ,

    The hive-mind children in here are worse than reddit ever was, and was there for 12-years. Notice not a soul stated anything counter to what I posted?

    DarkNightoftheSoul ,
    @DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz avatar

    That was the very first thing I noticed. I had two accounts over there for about 12 years too.

    Saledovil ,

    Afraid_of_zombies provided a counterexample to one of your theses, which you failed to debunk.

    DarkNightoftheSoul , (edited )
    @DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz avatar

    Shalafil posted a rebuttal 8 hours before this comment accusing them of not defending themselves, and this person posted a far more thorough debunking.

    That you think "non-sequitur therefore your argument is invalid" is a compelling argument is depressing.

    Saledovil , (edited )

    The overturning of Roe vs Wade, which was an almost 50 year old precedent, is an example of the supreme court acting in a partisan manner. Since the premise is that the current supreme court has never acted in a partisan manner, the counterexample refutes the premise. And if the premise of an argument is not true, then the argument doesn't support the thesis. So, the guy you cited is also wrong.

    Edit: Turns out the rebuttal you linked is a reply to a different, albeit identically worded post. And in this context, Shalafil didn't use the term 'never' in their premise, meaning that in that context, a single counterexample actually isn't enough to disprove the premise. So you're right on this one. Sorta annoying that these two clash several times in this discussion.

    DarkNightoftheSoul ,
    @DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz avatar

    What a remarkably reasonable take, both before and after edit.

    Saledovil ,

    Thank you.

    DarkNightoftheSoul ,
    @DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz avatar

    Thank you for actually taking the time.

    StupidBrotherInLaw ,

    I read your comment and it reminded me of something, but I just couldn't put my finger on it. It took me a few minutes, then it dawned on me: it was my drunk Trumper uncle at Thanksgiving dinner. He was telling us how the "Mexicans and Blacks" are sabotaging "White Christianity™" by crossing the border and interbreeding with white women and that our telling him to shut up and go home was the real intolerance

    Tl;dr: dumb people often blame everyone else for any consequences of their failure to recognize they're dumb.

    DarkNightoftheSoul ,
    @DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz avatar

    It's called the Dunning-Kruger Effect, and yes it's remarkable how often humans fall into this trap, isn't it? In my experience, the appropriate response is to educate people when they are mistaken. Perhaps you could take the time to correct my mistake instead of ridiculing me?

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Why do they need to put this off? Is there really a need to ponder over the question of 'is a president allowed to break laws with impunity?' Because it seems to me like there's only one answer there and it's "FUCK NO."

    ryathal ,

    It is fairly complicated. Should Obama be imprisoned for murder of US citizens in drone strikes? Should Bush be held liable for the incompetence in allowing 9/11? Should Clinton be held responsible for deaths in Kosovo for violation of the war powers act?

    Presidents do seem to have immunity with regard to actions as a President. Creating a ruling that protects presidential action and allows criminal prosecution for other actions is going to be difficult. There's also the matter of if actions done with immunity can be used as evidence against a president.

    There is some existing precedent for distinguishing the President from the Candidate during elections. This could be used as a basis for a ruling Trump isn't immune, but it's hardly definitive.

    It's going to take more than an "I know it when I see it" ruling.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Except the question is not 'is the president ever allowed to break the law,' the question is 'can the president break the law whenever he feels like it?' The answer is obviously no.

    Cuttlefish1111 ,

    Obama and Bush should face justice.

    girlfreddy OP ,
    @girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

    Both Shrubs should've faced a court.

    extant ,

    All of these are asking if someone is guilty when the actual question is are we allowed to bring you to court to determine if you are guilty. A president should not have immunity and if a president feels they need to take extreme actions they should justify them before a court and accept the consequences of their actions. If someone does not want to be in that position to make such a call and pay such a price they have no business taking that role.

    ryathal ,

    In most cases the guilt is largely proven, criminal liability would require a court to agree, but the findings from official reports are sufficient evidence. I'm not sure no immunity is a realistic outcome, a test for what actions are protected is most likely.

    extant ,

    To me it seems that if something was agreed upon to be a law it should be enforced and if there are exceptions to the rule they should be written into the law itself. If something isn't written into the law itself it should go to court where a determination can be made and if a jury finds there was good cause to commit such an action they can find them not guilty and a future exception can be added. By adding a blanket immunity it's like adding cheat mode into the game and it's going to be exploited in ways that we haven't imagined yet.

    Telodzrum ,

    The Court is actually moving much faster than they traditionally do in such matters.

    FiniteBanjo , (edited )

    They didn't have to move at all, though. That's the thing, they're doing this voluntarily, just like with their ruling on Trump being on the ballots because they claim Congress has to hold a vote every time they want to enforce a law that has existed for 150 years. They chose to rule on that, they didn't have to.

    Telodzrum ,

    Wow. Just wow.

    shalafi ,

    So you don't want a SCOTUS ruling on this? You would rather leave it somewhat ambiguous? I want a solid ruling.

    JonsJava Mod ,
    @JonsJava@lemmy.world avatar

    Most times, precedent is set by what the court decides NOT to review. When they say nothing, they are saying "the lower court has it right". This is standard practice.

    FiniteBanjo ,

    Other courts should be handling this, the SCOTUS ruling delays proceedings or otherwise makes him immune to crime, both bad outcomes.

    FenrirIII ,
    @FenrirIII@lemmy.world avatar

    No they aren't. They were asked to take this up a long time ago and didn't. Then, when shit started looking bad for Trump, they suddenly reverse course and delay his trial.

    Telodzrum ,

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

    •
    JonsJava Mod ,
    @JonsJava@lemmy.world avatar

    You are correct. Mr. Smith's team requested that the SCOTUS review this months ago. Long before it was brought to them by Trump's team, as a way to expedite the process, and stop the "play out the clock" approach they take.

    JonsJava Mod ,
    @JonsJava@lemmy.world avatar

    There's zero tradition for a former president being indicted numerous times for almost a hundred crimes. There's no measuring stick for this.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    Roe v. Wade. Your argument is invalid.

    shalafi ,

    More BS. This Court is conservative, not partisan. They owe nothing to Trump or the GOP. LOL, I even posted two accounts of them voting, or ignoring, both of those parties.

    And as to my references, got any arguments? Perhaps they should have taken the trans bathroom ruling and fought it? How about Washington's tax deal? That could have been Earth shattering.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    Roe v. Wade. Your argument is invalid.

    Leate_Wonceslace ,
    @Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Hi, I'm a mathematician. My career is built on creating, evaluating, and identifying the problems with logical arguments.

    Even if the person you're replying to is wrong, their argument is at least cogent; it's entirely possible that the Supreme Court rules against Trump, and there's good reason to believe that they will.

    Your comment (the one I am replying to) is a non-sequiter, and is therefore invalid.

    Furthermore, even when applying the principal of charitable interpretation, the best argument you could plausibly make relies on a false inference. Specifically: you fail to take into account the fact that the justices were selected for their opinions on abortion, and so their ruling cannot be used to infir that they will always act in the best interests of the GOP.

    Please don't be such a doomer asshole; it's unbecoming.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    Roe v. Wade. Your argument is invalid.

    DarkNightoftheSoul , (edited )
    @DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz avatar

    Things the hivemind here does not like:

    Knowing how to argue (or even having a vague idea)

    Being referred to as a hivemind

    Being shown they are wrong/unreasonable

    Observing the fact of disagreement downvotes

    How does one get into your line of work? It seems we need more of that.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    [Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

    •
    DarkNightoftheSoul , (edited )
    @DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz avatar

    Who's hiding? All of my comments are public, and you can tell because a whole shitload of people read my comments to downvote them because they disagree with me. Who's talking smack? I have asked questions, made claims, and the overwhelming response has been active hostility to me, personally, and not to my position. Case-in-point:

    You forgot, we also don’t like fucking cowards who hide and talk smack. Make sure to add it to your list so you can feel better than the rest of us.

    Hey everyone look at the superior mind here.

    Your comment is two things: Sarcastic, vitriolic, ad hominem (smack talk), and a total failure to address any of the claims I or others are making. I suspect because if you attempted to actually address the claim (instead of calling the person you disagree with coward and, by sarcastic implication, stupid), for instance, that "the hivemind will downvote you when they disagree with you here," you realize you would fail utterly.

    I'm sorry you feel the need to attack me with compliments, your fascination with the superiority of my mind(?) is very strange. I never said that I was smarter than you or anyone else here, and, in my opinion, this is suggestive of your own lack of confidence in your position or your ability to argue your position.

    I'm reporting your comment for ad hominem attacks and bad faith argumentation. There, downvote that.

    Leate_Wonceslace ,
    @Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Step 1 is taking a bunch of math classes in college.

    DarkNightoftheSoul ,
    @DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz avatar

    I'm working on that already, though I had planned computer/electrical engineering.

    Daft_ish , (edited )

    Wow this list is quite damning.

    Supreme Court allows federal agents to cut razor wire Texas installed on US-Mexico border

    Omg the Supreme Court honors the federal governments right to control the boarder. So controversial and certainly something that would never get flipped on its head.

    Oh the SUPREME COURT didn't want to talk about $500 mask fines???

    This has to be satire.

    girlfreddy OP ,
    @girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

    I dunno why SCOTUS doesn't just announce their opinion now, because we all know what it will be anyways.

    NegativeLookBehind ,
    @NegativeLookBehind@lemmy.world avatar

    They gotta make sure all the dark money has time to be transferred into their accounts.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    This is much craftier of them. Obviously they can't rule that a president can break any law they want and they know that, so they're delaying their ruling until after the election when it won't matter anymore.

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