@bougiewonderland True. Just that, recently, many are doing filler episodes just to meet the 16-episode deal they had with the network. Not like in the earlier days, it was packed.
There are still good ones, but rare. If they can do it, they should, no, must break the trend and should not limit themselves to 16 episodes or fewer. I think one way they can do it is they embrace having follow-up seasons. But if I will make a guess, I think the networks are the ones who refuse to do multi-season franchises, so the writers end up with a closed ending.
@youronlyone Dailies are still ~120, of course. I really hope 12 does become the new norm, but there are still plenty of 16s being made, sadly. It was great to see a 12 episode Drama, Knight Flower, set viewing records for its network slot. It might help accelerate the trend.
@ronsboy67 Oh yeah, the dailies are still long, and in the family genre usually.
Hmm… maybe it's more of the type of story or genre? Like in the family genre, it's mainly light and comedic, for the general audience. And they rarely need a big budget, they can even film it at the studio.
But, yes, it's better to have 12-episode today, especially with many of the recent 16s are starting to have fillers, not like in the early days when it was packed.
6-8 are still, I don't know, too short. Even those Western shows with 6-8 were just too short. I think 6-8 works if they wrote it like it was a “movie”, like the #Kdrama “Anna”.
@youronlyone
Page Turner was not a Web #Kdrama it was a KBS production, possibly from a screenwriting contest, I think?
Check Out The Event may have been a web Drama as MDL lists both iQiyi and MBC as the networks responsible. Neither Drama was a compilation of shrot web episodes though
@KDramaQn@youronlyone There are A LOT of recent shorter #KDrama series that are clearly built around at least the possibility of a 2nd season, and I tend to shun those as I INTENSELY dislike that element of "Westernisation".
But having drifted toward #JDrama (where 12 is LONG) in large part because of all the saggy bloated filler in >=16 ep KDramas, I love the nice tight feel of those #KDramas that are written short and complete. "One Day Off" is a beautiful example
@ronsboy67 True. Although in my case, if a story, or the world they built, has potential, I want them to create additional seasons.
It is like reading novels. If the author did well with the first novel, making the worldbuilding and story enticing and engaging, I want to see Book 2, Book 3, and so on.
For example, “IRIS”. It was good they created “Athena: Goddess of War”, a spin-off, and “IRIS 2” (with elements from the first season and Athena).
Or, say, “Missing: The Other Side”, they created a Season 2 which was perfect for the franchise and what I believe to be the goal of the writer: to tell the public we should care about the missing persons cases. (They don't have plans for a Season 3, which is a good decision, because it will dilute the message of the franchise.)
And the “Strong Woman/Girl” franchise, was itself a good execution. They created two parallel stories, and they plan on creating a Season 2 for each, and potentially introduce another parallel story “Strong Man/Boy”. They're expanding the universe, and leaving potential new seasons open.
While it appears to be “Westernizing”, for me, if the fictional world they created is very good, then they shouldn't avoid creating a new sesason. It doesn't have to be 3-7 seasons more. Again, depending on the story, like in “Missing: The Other Side”, 2 seasons is perfect for the story.
Or, they can do the “Strong Woman/Girl” approach, create parallel stories. Or, the IRIS approach, spin-off, and then later combine the spin-off with the main.
None of those series appealed to me, and am suprised by your praise for the IRIS sequel. In the 11 years I've been watching #KDrama, that one has been universally lambasted as an absolute turkry. You're literally the first I've ever heard praise it.
I HATED the 1st Strong Woman for its brazen misogyny, so was never going to watch a 2nd season. The ONLY #KDrama I've wtached with more than 1 season was Forest of Secrets - which, to be fair I scores S2 higher than S1
@ronsboy67 Interesting. The IRIS franchise, especially the spin-off Athena, was well received here. In my case, it's actually the first time I've heard someone who did not like it. I guess that points to cultural differences and genre preferences. Was it perfect? Of course not.
As for Strong Woman, was it not the point of the writer to expose it without getting a negative reaction from their own culture? If one's culture (in this case, the writer's) still have prejudices against this and that, fiction is often the best way to express it and to expose it. Fiction has been used that way for centuries.
Many #Kdrama I've seen for the past 7 years touched on sensitive issues common in South Korea that either no one is talking about or you'll get cancelled for raising it up (for example, toxic feminism). So, fiction became a medium. It's there, and hopefully people in Korea noticed it at least (because foreign fans typically missed it and instead are drooling for their favourite actors).
This is what I like with K-drama, and #Jdrama for that matter, there are social issues embedded in their stories. This has been forgotten, in general, in Western entertainment. In the West, it's about how much money they'll earn; to the point that they'll pretend they agree with “movements” just so members of those “movements” will watch their shows. This is why I like “Star Trek: Strange New Worlds”, because of all the “nuTrek”, SNW is the only one that went back to its roots (but it does not mean I don't like the other ”nuTrek” series).
Going back to Korea, it was actually amazing that productions like “Extraordinary Attorney Woo” and “Innocent Witness” were green lit, as well as, “The Devil Judge” and “The Killing Vote”. These shows directly addressed social (and political) issues. If I take a guess, they got green lit because those issues (prejudice against #Autistics; and corrupt politicians) apply not just in South Korea, but everywhere else; otherwise, they more likely have to do embed it, or just mention in passing.
In any case, maybe it is just me. When I watch, I try to unlock the mind and goal of the writer, and understand the story from their perspective. What made prompted them to write it this way? What drove the director to express an act in a particular way?
For example, the K-drama “Please Don't Date Him”, and another one I can't recall right now, got so much negative reaction from foreign audiences. Some even had the audacity to make statements like “it doesn't happen in real life” or “the writer should quit, they don't know how to write a good story”. But, when I explained it to them, they changed their mind.
It's the same with “Grid”, “Alice”, and “Sisyphus: The Myth”. The writers got reactions like “the writer is dumb”; “that's now how time travel works”; “they should stop writing, they suck”. Likewise, after explaining it to them, they understood the story and what the writer had in mind.
So, I guess, it is just me seeing things differently in these stories. Maybe because I see these as a form of #Art. If it is an art, then we have to view it and understand it from the creator's perspective.
"If it is an art, then we have to view it and understand it from the creator's perspective."
This actually gets debated A LOT, in many forms of art: Is the creator's perspective the only valid one, assuming we can be sure we know what their perspective is? I've seen many writers say that once they finish a work, it's no longer theirs but belongs to those who consume it. It's an interesting question, one that will be debated forever, I think
For me, the way I see it, only the creator's perspective is the valid one. If they were able to fully express it in their work, it will be for us to find it. If we can find it, then we will understand the why's and how's of their work.
Then, we can interpret it from our perspective after that, as the observer/reader/audience. Because, only then we can truly have a fair comparison and understanding of their art. It is only then we can truly “feel” and “connect” with them.
Personally, I don't agree with the writers who say that it is no longer theirs. If it is no longer theirs, then there shouldn't be any Copyright to it, it should be in the Public Domain. Me, as the audience/reader, can do whatever I want with it.
But that is not the case. Most of those writers who say that, will go to the court, or complain, how this writer and that writer “stole” their work. How they “own” it, and those other writers reinterpreted it differently from how they intended it to be. In the end, it's clear, the finished work is still theirs and theirs alone; because art is a creator's perspective and interpretation of a subject/issue around them.
It's an interesting paradox you have created for yourself - insisting that only the writer's perspective is the correct one UNLESS their perspective is that theirs is NOT the only perspective.
In that case, you are saying that you are right and they are wrong, which contradicts your assertion that theirs is the only correct pov.
Not really. Because we're sharing our perspective on things, not imposing it on others. I shared my personal view on it, but I never once said or hinted that it applies to them. If I'm imposing it on them, then it becomes a contradiction.
For example: “you are saying that you are right and they are wrong” is incorrect. I never implied that, nor anything close to that, so there's no contradiction.
And I think I also said that once we understand their perspective, then we can view the art from our own lens, which in turn will give us a fair comparison and understanding of the art.
Think of it this way.
I created an art. Fiction. Drama. Film. Abstract painting. That work was based on my own experiences and the surrounding environment.
Now, here's someone reading/watching/looking at the art I made. They said, “they don't know anything about writing a story” or “what a bad director, they should stop!” Or, “that's now how you do this painting”.
But there is a story behind the art I made. There were factors involved which influenced my thinking, my approach, and my style.
Which perspective then is correct? The third-party or the creator's?
The third-party failed to understand the creator's perspective and are judging it from their own lens only. If only they tried to see it from the creator's perspective before using their own lens, then they can give a proper and fair review.
That's how I see it. I often look at art and find the perspective of the creator first, so I can understand why they did the way they did it. I'll be able to appreciate and connect with the creator as well. Once I am confident that I've unlocked the creator's perspective, then I can look at it using my own lens.
By the way, this approach is not my own creation. It's how we were taught in school in our English subject, when reading classical books. I like the approach and I find it fair.
One of the reasons that I moved away from typical Western tv shows, and favour my BBC shows and a#kdrama, is the number of episodes and seasons. I like that things are generally simple with a Korean drama: beginning, middle, end. Boom. Done and dusted. If there is more than 1 season it is usually at the behest of the network and/or fan driven? And sometimes the extra season feels like that: extra and a tiny bit outside of the first, not as good. Although some feel like they could have used a 2nd season, eg #MoonLovers:ScarletHeartRyeo 😉
Unless it is a mystery/inspector series etc.. with the majority of UK shows, IF there is more than one season, the max number of seasons is 3-4, with 6-8 eps each. Again, done and dusted.
US shows typically have anywhere from 2-11 seasons and each season has at least 20 episodes. Characters in and out, highly formulaic (not that a kdrama doesn't have a formula) and after a while I get bored. Why not leave on an up like #TedLasso or #SchittsCreek?
True. Like BBC's Sherlock Holmes, short, packed, meaningful. (Too unfortunate it was cancelled because of… well, you know.) And the His Dark Materials TV adaptation (though I wish they extended it to 12 episodes instead of 8 per season, so they didn't have to skip some other good parts of the books).
I agree, like The Flash, while I am a big fan of the character, in any of its iterations, CW's The Flash was just too long, and repetitive. The first three seasons were great. After that, meh. I skipped S04 and S05. Then I continued from S06 to the end.
You know, at least in K-drama land, if a writer can do a 6-8 episode series, or 12, personally I think it shows their talent in writing. The director as well for that matter. Because then, it means they know the story they want to tell; and understand full well what are needed and what can be removed.
I'm not saying the other writers don't know how to write a good story. There are 16-episode and 25-episode (and longer) K-drama whose writers did not resort to filler scenes and episodes (especially in the time travel and mystery genres, every scene is a clue and adds to the overall arc). But, I think it is a challenge to write a 12-episode series, much more a 6-8-episode one season series, like Anna.
They have to pack it without losing focus and the impact. They have to combine the talents of the writer, the director, and editing, to capture everything and present it well. Not only that, but they have to build the characters too, in a short span of time, without taking too much air time away from the main plot.
It's like writing a short story. It's hard if you're not a seasoned author/writer, because you tend to add scenes in your story. If you just remove it later, it gets harder to make any sense, you do have to write from the beginning knowing your target is a short story.
I think, and again this is just my logical assumption, it's the same with writing for a 6-8-episode series. So, I have so much respect for writers who can pull it off and give us excellent shows.
The only US multi season tv show that I have watched is CWs #Supernatural. I lost interest in and was disappointed by the 6th or 7th season. During various stages of lockdown, watching all 15 seasons was a pet project.
Oh yeah, it was too long! Did you finish your 15-season marathon of it? I can't imagine. ^^;;
Another one was The Walking Dead. It was why I praised “All Of Us Are Dead”, while they're not the same other than being in the zombie genre, the idea of survival and the various human emotions, mindset, combined, are similar. Yet, AOUAD was able to do in one season what multiple seasons of TWD tried to do.
@youronlyone@KDramaQn@Erzbet I think the longest US series I'ver finished was Babylon 5, ~120 eps altogether. Or 360 eps if you count the fact that I've watched it 3 times. 😂
Speaking of comparison with North American shows, there's one I am waiting this year, Netflix's adaptation of the popular Chinese novel “Three-Body Problem”. Tencent released their 30-episode TV adaptation last year, supposedly Netflix was going to release their late 2023 but delayed it to March 2024.
Netflix's adaptation will have 8 episodes only, at least based on its Wikipedia page. The Tencent adaptation was awesome, I've been thinking that was the reason Netflix had to delay their adaptation, they probably made changes. They won't be able to avoid being compared to Tencent (not to mention, there's going to be a lot of “cultural appropriation” thrown at them).
I wonder how the long and short series will compare in this case? Tencent's 30-episode vs Netflix's 8-episode adaptations?