[Serious] Why do so many people seem to hate veganism?

Seen a lot of posts on Lemmy with vegan-adjacent sentiments but the comments are typically very critical of vegan ideas, even when they don't come from vegans themselves. Why is this topic in particular so polarising on the internet? Especially since unlike politics for example, it seems like people don't really get upset by it IRL

Nougat ,

It's a first world hill to die on, and many of the people who espouse veganism are only able to do so because of their own privilege.

It's a combination of smugness and "I'm better than you" and the lack of awareness that everyone had and continues to benefit from a world that has always used animal products. The Industrial Revolution basically ran on steam engines and leather belts, for example.

I have absolutely no problem with the idea that using fewer animal products and eating less meat is a good idea. I also recognize that feeding the world's growing population is probably going to involve insects being more widely used as a food source.

jeffw ,

What privilege? Meat is the most expensive food out there. Eating rice and beans isn’t really showing privilege

r4venw ,
@r4venw@kbin.social avatar

Maybe they mean privilege wrt education? As i understand it, it takes a non-zero amount of knowledge about nutrition to substitute meat completely and not be deficient in something. But I'm a life-long omnivore so I may be wrong

nature_man ,

There's also the privilege of living in a location where vegan alternatives are readily and frequently available, vast swaths of the US are in what's known as "food deserts", locations where "residents’ access to affordable, healthy food options (especially fresh fruits and vegetables) is restricted or nonexistent due to the absence of grocery stores within convenient traveling distance" (https://foodispower.org/access-health/food-deserts/) these locations also tend to have high obesity or diabetes rates due to the fact that the only food easily and cheaply available is high in sugar. Add in things like the increased price for even simple vegan foods (like rice and beans) and you might be starting to see the picture, as much as some people would LIKE to be vegan it is literally not possible for them without either taking on substantial additional costs or completely upending their life.

A lot of the reason people who are otherwise pro-vegan (like myself) tend to dislike online vegans is that they will, consistently and smugly, while in a location and economic position where its easier to get vegan options, berate people for eating animal products without ever considering the possibility that its MUCH harder to get non-animal product based foods in certain areas

Inui ,

A lot of people online will also point to food deserts in other parts of the country as a reason they, living within 20 minutes of 5 different grocery stores, personally won't make any changes.

nature_man ,

Food deserts aren't just places where there aren't grocery stores, they also include places where there are abundant stores but fruits, veggies, and other vegan or healthy options cost drastically more, for example, there are parts of New York City considered to be food deserts because all the healthy options are too expensive for someone on a low income to reliably afford, forcing them to go for unhealthy, but cheaper options. This is something that, to the credit of whoever is in charge of the NYC health department, the city has been working on solving, doing things such as incentivizing "Green Carts", food carts with affordable healthy options like vegetables and fruits.

Also consider, you don't know too much about that person's life, maybe they live in a non-food desert location but have to travel frequently via car through food deserts, maybe they have to move a food desert in the future, maybe they have a dietary restriction preventing them from accessing several of those healthy vegan options, so they have to supplement their diet by using animal products.

Also, in my experience, most 'anti-vegans' tend to have no idea what a food desert is, the normal excuse is nutrients or iron intake, most of the non-vegans I've talked to that even know about food deserts have either tried to go vegan and found it too hard to do while also keeping up with their health and finances or work in an industry directly combating food deserts, just something to consider.

Bonehead ,

Those aren't the vegans that most people are talking about. Being poor and having to eat vegan is different from being vegan because you want to stand out from everyone else with your vegan black bean soy burger with vegan cheese on a vegan sprouted whole wheat bun. If you can afford the overpriced "vegan" versions of typically non-vegan foods, and complain about your struggles being vegan, that's privilege.

When you're poor, you don't advertise the fact that you're eating vegan. You just make rice and beans because it's the absolute cheapest food available. You'll take meat and non-vegan when it's available. But at the very least, you'll survive on rice and beans. It's generally not something that people are proud of.

Passerby6497 , (edited )

You just make rice and beans because it's the absolute cheapest food available. You'll take meat and non-vegan when it's available. But at the very least, you'll survive on rice and beans.

This. When I was poor af and regularly using the food bank they'd give venison periodically, and that was my favorite part of the boxes. That and this rice and seasoning meals went together amazingly and would last me like a week of meals.

Inui ,

You're making a big assumption here by saying that all vegans are buying vegan substitutes like Beyond Burgers. And I mean very big, since all the vegans I know don't eat that stuff or buy it occasionally as a treat, or at a restaurant. Most of my meals are simple with rice, noodles, curry paste, and some vegetables. They can even be frozen or canned to reduce preparation time.

NoIWontPickAName ,

They explicitly said that he was only judging the people only being vegan to be vegan so they could act like that

Inui ,

Which is a non-existent strawman.

NoIWontPickAName ,

You’re going to have to quote me what I said, we are too far into the thread.

I don’t doubt what you said, I just don’t know what I said. lol

Burn_The_Right ,

The implication is that this is common. I don't think even one vegan is vegan just to show off some kind of privelege. This is just a childish and unrealistic caricature that does not exist in reality.

Bonehead ,

I didn't say that. I said if you're buying the vegan substitutes and advertising that fact, that makes you privileged. I've seen it many times. There are even some in this post. People that eat vegan because they have limited choices don't advertise it. People that want to feel superior over others will express how much of a vegan they are.

Inui ,

People aren't vegan through limited choice. It's a conscious decision. You might eat a plant-based diet because you can't afford meat, but that doesn't make you the same as someone who is choosing not to eat meat on purpose. You're comparing someone who wants to be vegan with someone who doesn't and saying one is superior/less annoying. They're two different people.

Bonehead ,

Congratulations, you're finally getting it. They are two different people. There are people that eat vegan because they have no choice. Those people are not privileged. There are people that call themselves vegan and make sure everyone knows they are vegan. Those are the vegans the original comment was talking about, which someone took offense to. That's why I pointed out the difference.

It took a little effort, but at least you got there.

Inui ,

Am I privileged if I can afford to eat Beyond Burgers every night but I eat rice and beans instead? What if I can't afford those things, still eat rice and beans, but I tell people I'm vegan to avoid awkward social interactions? You're making up a caricature of vegans in your head, comparing them to poor people who happen to not be able to afford meat, and then saying the latter is somehow a better person.

The option you presented is a poor non-vegan person vs. a wealthier vegan person. There are people in between these two things.

Bonehead ,

What if I can’t afford those things, still eat rice and beans, but I tell people I’m vegan to avoid awkward social interactions?

But would you? Would you really turn down free food simply because you're vegan? Would you really tell people you're vegan to avoid an "awkward social interaction" when offered free food? If so, that makes you privileged. Being able to pick and choose food makes you privileged, whether it's vegan or not. That's the difference.

Inui ,

Yes and yes because I've been there.

Everyone is more privileged than someone. It's obviously more privileged to be able to eat fresh vegetables vs. people having to eat bark in occupied countries. But most serious vegans will also tell you that if you're on a desert island and your only way to survive is to kill and eat a pig (as ridiculous as the scenario is), you should do it, because we acknowledge self-preservation is real and valid.

Bonehead ,

Wow...so you've been so poor that you can only afford rice and beans, and you've been offered free food that you turned down because it wasn't vegan? Really? See, that's the kind of smugness OP was talking about. You put your veganism above securing food, and you're proud of it. You willingly sacrificed your self-preservation for your principles. And now you're advertising it.

Inui ,

You literally asked me the question and are now chastising me for my answer. This is the "how do you know someone is vegan" joke. I pointed out self-preservation to point out that vegans don't go around attacking poor people and don't expect people to keep their principles in those situations. I made a choice I don't expect other people to make. I point my criticisms at the people I know in real life who shop at the exact same stores I do and make similar amounts of money, but still use poor people as an excuse not to change their own behavior.

Bonehead ,

You literally asked me the question and are now chastising me for my answer.

Yes, because you claim to be poor yet still call being vegan a lifestyle choice. And you chastise others in your position for not making that choice. Poor people don't get to make those choices. Poor people do whatever it takes to survive. Poor people live on that desert island every single day and have to make difficult decisions. Poor take whatever they can get and are greatful for it. Poor people don't have the privilege to turn down food.

Maybe begin to recognize your own privilege before telling other people what to do.

Inui ,

I think you are a deeply unserious person who idolizes poverty by saying vegans making the choice are bad and people forced into are good. I also think, based on this conversation, that you hold no strong convictions that can't be shaken out of you with a little bit of hardship and can't contextualize any amount of self-sacrifice because of your obsession with veganism being a privileged position. I already told you that people who have no other option are not a target of criticism, but people like you who who use others as a scapegoat certainly are. I'm blocking you now though because this is going nowhere.

Bonehead ,

I pointed out self-preservation to point out that vegans don’t go around attacking poor people and don’t expect people to keep their principles in those situations. I made a choice I don’t expect other people to make.

Then literally the very next sentence, you contradict yourself.

I point my criticisms at the people I know in real life who shop at the exact same stores I do and make similar amounts of money, but still use poor people as an excuse not to change their own behavior.

You claim to be poor, claim to not attack people who are poor, then chastise people who are poor for not making the same choices that you do. You are a hypocrite. Have a nice day.

Nougat ,

Vegan: no animal products. No butter, no eggs, having to be well-informed (as others have stated) and know about the content of every bit of everything you buy, and making choices on that basis instead of on cost.

Even then, how many of the products you buy and use every day have depended on animal products for their manufacture? I'm willing to bet that a fair amount of human labor consumes and uses animal products to sustain themselves, even if there are no animal products in the thing you're buying. I don't think it's fair to compartmentalize that away from purchasing decisions. The people who put your flat pack MDF furniture in a box, did they have a chicken sandwich on their lunch break? The people who are paving the roads and maintain the rails on which the products you ultimately buy, are they wearing leather boots?

Everyone depends, to some degree or another, on the use of animal products, either as food or for some other purpose. Even vegans.

Edit: Like I said above, reducing dependence on animal products is probably a good idea, but people who believe they have eliminated their dependence on animal products are patting themselves on the back for something they simply cannot accomplish.

Bipta ,

The people who put your flat pack MDF furniture in a box, did they have a chicken sandwich on their lunch break?

Congratulations on synthesizing truly the dumbest argument I have ever seen in my entire life.

andyburke ,
andyburke avatar

Can you explain what's wrong with this argument? As a relatively disinterested observer it seems reasonable to me.

Buffalox , (edited )

Being Vegan is a choice for yourself so it's a fallacy to argue that others are not Vegan, and saying it doesn't help to try to make a difference unless everybody does it is also a fallacy.
So the argument is based on no less than 2 obvious fallacies. This should be pretty obvious, so question is if you are just a troll?

andyburke ,
andyburke avatar

I'll say that this reaction does nothing to make me think you are approaching this with any objectivity.

The argument, to me, seems to be that it's impossible in the modern world as things stand to actually totally avoid animal products. That would seem like an issue that Veganism should be concerned with.

I see your point, I think, about it being an individual choice. But though I have heard of things like vegan shoes, I can see how saying those are vegan when you may not control all the inputs seems problematic.

Regardless, your response was so unpleasant that I don't think I'm much interested in continuing.

Buffalox ,

Yeah no reason to go to the moon if we can't visit other planets yet. That's the kind of logic you are arguing.
The vegan argument is to not contribute to animal suffering, you can't control what other people do.
And avoiding suffering doesn't help because there will still be suffering is about as stupid as it gets.

Inui ,

Veganism has never been about avoiding all animal products 100%. Only as far as possible.

To put it another way, would you feel responsible if the person who installed your solar panels drove an oversized truck in their personal life?

Inui ,

Because its not within any one vegans control whether a random factory worker has chicken for lunch. If there were businesses that only hired vegans and sold vegan products (there are, but very few), then vegans would obviously be buying things from there instead. If someone who isn't vegan themselves uses this impossible purity test as an excuse not to make changes themselves, then they weren't genuine about making any attempt in the first place.

Nougat ,

If you're okay with compartmentalizing that out of the production of goods and services you use, that's a you thing.

Inui ,

Why is it reasonable to expect me to have any control over what a factory worker is eating? There are entirely vegan businesses, but its setting up a ridiculous goal post to claim vegans are somehow hypocritical by not having a 100% vegan production chain as a consumer, which is literally impossible in the current world. If we could, we absolutely would. But if you want to argue that vegans should handcraft and grow literally everything they use as an excuse not make any changes yourself, I don't know what to say.

Tywele ,
@Tywele@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Veganism is not about completely eliminating every use of animal products no matter what. It's about reducing animal suffering and their exploitation as long as it's possible and practicable.

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

From https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism

Mostly_Gristle ,

The privilege is being able to choose to eat that way out of a sense of morality or fashion rather for the reason that it's literally all there is to eat. The privilege is being able to turn your nose up at perfectly edible food for no other reason than that it's got a bit of egg, honey, or butter in it without having to worry about starving to death. The privilege is also having access to such an abundance and variety of food that you can maintain a vegan diet year round and not have to fear that you won't meet all the calorie, protein, and vitamin requirements you need to stay alive and healthy while much of the world is in a constant struggle to scrape together enough calories of any kind to stay alive.

Nougat ,

Thank you for saying this in a way I was unable to muster.

businessfish ,
@businessfish@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

that's great, but most vegans you speak to will tell you that we aren't telling the people who lack the privilege we have to go vegan. we're asking our neighbors, our bosses, our friends - people in similar if not the very same life circumstances as us - to walk a couple aisles over from where they buy the meat in the grocery store and buy some beans instead.

people love to bring up the privilege thing, but i would argue that it is entirely irrelevant. the entire point of veganism is to do what is reasonably possible and practicable. not to tell people who don't have the privilege to be so discerning about their diet that they are going to hell or something.

ricecake ,

Well, that's getting into the difference between veganism and vegetarianism.

That aside, although meat is expensive from a cost and input perspective, it is a very efficient and dense source of calories and protein.
Outside of a first world or industrial agricultural setting, they also have the advantage of being able to convert food sources humans cannot eat into one we can, while to a great degree being able to tend to themselves.
Goats, sheep and chickens can have large numbers managed by a few children with sticks, and also produce non-vegan animal byproducts which can be sold for cash.
This is also before hunting is considered.

While vegetarianism and veganism can be practiced outside of a first world context, and indeed have been for thousands of years, they do come with sacrifices that are significantly easier to make with more money or in a post agricultural region.
Eschewing cheese, eggs and honey is not a difficult thing to do for me if I wanted, but there are places where that's just leaving good food uneaten, or money unearned.

That's I believe what's being referred to when it's called a privilege.

jeffw ,

Except meat is the least efficient protein source. You need land to grow animal feed, which largely could be used to grow crops to feed humans. You put in like 100 calories to get 1 calorie out.

ricecake ,

Not all land is suitable for crop cultivation, which was the point I was making. In subsistence or low tech farming areas, animals forage on land unsuitable for crop production and eat food unsuitable for human consumption. They're not eating feed, they're eating wild weeds and grass we can't. They're eating insects, miscellaneous seeds, small plants and whatever they find.

Do you think that if you're farming to have enough food to feed your family and maybe some leftovers to sell, that you're going to choose to produce something markedly inefficient in comparison to other options?
Subsistence farmers today aren't stupid. They're not wasting 90% of their food because they want a hamburger. They raise goats and chickens because they feed themselves and you let your kid who's too young to do heavy work follow them with a stick to keep them from wandering off. They raise cattle and donkeys because they can forage, and what they can't forage is more than made up for by using them to work the land or as beasts of burden.

There's a reason we domesticated animals. We didn't just immediately start giving them feed corn and locking them in cages.

It's a privilege to be able to ignore a readily available source of food.
It's a privilege to live in a society where we set aside land to grow huge amounts of food to feed our food.
It's a privilege to not have to know specifically where your food is coming from.

It's kind of ignorant to think that people who don't have those privileges must be foolish enough to choose what you think is an inefficient option, and to not consider why they would make that choice.

CalciumDeficiency OP ,

Found it interesting to discover that the money here in the UK is made from animal parts - I think certain notes contain tallow? Definitely seems like it is impossible to fully exclude animal products from your daily life unless you go off the grid and try to be an entirely self sufficient vegan homesteader, which, while extremely difficult and likely dangerous is still an option open to those preaching a vegan lifestyle. Vegans often do not actually practise their philosophy as far as is practical and possible, they all draw the line somewhere so far as how willing they are to sacrifice their comfort and convenience. Like there are no fully vegan cars - the glue is animal based, even if you opt out of a leather interior. Public transport or taking a job you can walk to are alternatives in the UK if you actually cared about benefitting from animals as little as possible, but few vegans will make sacrifices which are actually inconvenient once you get down to the nitty gritty

Imo being a vegan so far as diet and basic lifestyle changes goes is fairly easy for some people (they don't really like meat to begin with, know how to cook and enjoy it, no real health issues, disposable income) but the real test of how much they actually believe in these ideas is in if they consistently give up more niche forms of animal exploitation wherever they can

rudyharrelson ,
@rudyharrelson@kbin.social avatar

I think "the money is made from animal parts and there are no fully vegan cars so you're arbitrarily picking and choosing when to be vegan" misses the point of ideological veganism. I'm not a vegan, but I believe the goal for ideological vegans (in contrast with those who are vegan for medical reasons) is to minimize suffering and exploitation within reason for the specific reasons you said. No one can be 100% free of animal parts unless they become an off-the-grid self-sustained homestead.

Vegans know that. But most come to the conclusion that just because you can't live 100% animal free doesn't mean you can't try to get to 80% because you want to live your life in a manner you consider morally and ethically consistent with your collective ideologies. You get as close as you can within reason depending on the various constraints of your individual circumstances. "I am still a vegetarian, and I try to be a vegan, but I occasionally cheat. If there's a cheese pizza on the band bus, I might sneak a piece," to quote Weird Al Yankovic.

I'd say most people, including vegans, have more than one goal in life. The "lines in the sand" you're referring to are at the intersection of their goal to minimize suffering and their goal to, say, keep living. Like if a vegan were told by their doctor, "If you don't start eating meat, you'll die from this weird disease," the vegan likely wouldn't be like, "Well, I might as well indulge in eggs and milk and all other animal products now since I can't be 100% vegan" and chow down. They'd probably eat just the amount prescribed by their doctor, because they still don't like eating meat because its origins bother them.

CalciumDeficiency OP ,

I would be totally fine with them drawing their lines wherever if they let other people do the same, but many vegans will take the stance that consuming animal products or meat is always wrong, and never justified, no matter what. Many vegans actually would disagree that it is justified to eat animal products if a doctor recommended it, they'd say there are no nutrients found within those products which can't be found in plants. They'd also be against eating gifted non-vegan food, many are against feeding cats a nonvegan diet too

Burn_The_Right ,

Um... Ima call bullshit real quick. I don't think you have ever met a single person who is as you've drawn in your cartoon here.

Also, why would a vegan or vegetarian be obligated to eat an animal-based product just because it was a gift? That would be weird as fuck. You don't eat sausage or cheese? Here's a sausage and cheese basket. It's a gift; you have to eat it.

And finally, you are suggesting that vegans kill cats. Cats are obligate carnivores. Vegan cat owners know this. A "vegan cat" will not survive long. Suggesting vegans force cats to be vegans is just an absurd falsehood.

iiGxC ,

Re: vegan cats, they actually can do well on a properly planned/supplemented vegan diet, although more research is needed. If you're against nutritionally complete vegan kibble, you should be against all kibble

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9860667/ The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review (2023)

"However, there is little evidence of adverse effects arising in dogs and cats on vegan diets. In addition, some of the evidence on adverse health impacts is contradicted in other studies. Additionally, there is some evidence of benefits, particularly arising from guardians’ perceptions of the diets. Given the lack of large population-based studies, a cautious approach is recommended. If guardians wish to implement a vegan diet, it is recommended that commercial foods are used."

Burn_The_Right ,

TIL

SporeAdic ,

Vegans literally are suggesting solutions to the growing population because in almost every situation, it is much more efficient by land and water use for people to eat plant-based rather than meat. It's only a "first world hill to die on" if you think poor people can't eat plants. Sorry but I don't think this is a very accurate take...

Nougat ,

"Meat from herd mammals" is not at all the sum total of use of animal products. Should we all be eating less beef? Sure, I can get behind that. None? I'm okay with that, too. What about eggs, cheese, butter - and that's only referring to things we eat, not things we use for other purposes.

Wooki ,

“Suggesting”

Proceeds to lecture

Floey ,

People also continue to benefit from the work of slaves in the past and even present. What's your point? Do you think slavery is ethical? Is someone choosing to avoid products created from slave labour not a more ethical choice?

Honytawk ,

There are some very militant vegans out here on Lemmy, equating eating meat with rape and murder and generally being annoying without actually contributing to the discussions.

They are actively harming their cause. So much so, I suspect them of actually being trolls trying to make vegans look bad.

Or they are just dumb as a brick and don't understand common discourse. That's possible too.

iiGxC , (edited )

Well if you support the rape and murder of animals (both common in animal agriculture) don't be surprised when people get upset

NoIWontPickAName ,

Thank you for proving everyone’s point. This is the .01% I was talking about @CalciumDeficiency

iiGxC ,

Eh, sometimes it makes sense to just call things as they are instead of trying to tiptoe around peoples feelings.

If you don't think artificial insemination is a form of rape/sexual violation, then idk what kind of meaningful discussion we can have. If you don't think unnecessary killing is murder, then again idk what kind of meaningful discussion we can have. (Note that there's not really any good reason for the term "murder" to only apply to humans. If someone kills your dog would you be opposed to the use of the word "murder" then?)

mortemtyrannis ,

Do you refer to animals predating other animals as murder too?

Inui ,

Do those other animals have the biology that allows them to subsist on other foods and the higher thinking required to question the morality of their actions?

mortemtyrannis ,

Arguably, yes to both of those things.

Vegan cat food exists for example and animals have exhibited morals.

NoIWontPickAName ,

Cool you should just block me, we won’t get along and I won’t be able to respond, since I’m blocking you right after this.

Your parameters for conversation aren’t conducive for polite conversation.

Feel free to say whatever you like back, I won’t see it and maybe you can feel better pretending like you won.

Have the life you deserve.

thisfro ,

While eating meat is neither murder nor rape, for meat to be produced, exactly that needs to happen.

Or how would you call it?

Honytawk ,

Animals are born and die, it is the natural circle of life.

You can blame the meat industry for horrific practices to satiate the market with cheap meat.

But it is definitely possible to have ethical meat consumption that doesn't involve murdering or raping the animals.

thisfro ,

But it is definitely possible to have ethical meat consumption that doesn't involve murdering or raping the animals.

How?

ThrowawayPermanente ,

Because strident, belligerant activists don't raise awareness, they just make people hate them. I'm sure there's a generalizable lesson in here somewhere.

jacktherippah ,

I don't hate veganism. It's a dietary choice and that's fine. What I hate is vegans. They're always pushy and judgmental and hateful and sometimes even destructive in their activism. They're an annoying group of people and I just don't want to have to deal with them.

GBU_28 ,

Unfortunately this is a topic like abortion.

Vegans and pro life folks see what "others" are doing as murder/evil. So naturally, since they view the behavior as absolutely inappropriate, their discussion of the topic is always very energetic.

I am not advocating for any dietary path, or abortion position in this comment. I'm only describing people's behavior. Do not misrepresent me.

Tywele ,
@Tywele@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Veganism is not a dietary choice it's a lifestyle choice. Diet is just a big part of it but not the whole thing.

surewhynotlem ,

Then what would we call someone who makes the dietary choice but none of the other lifestyle choices? How would they identify in a restaurant setting? The answer is "vegan". In the same way that I'm vegetarian but don't care if I wear leather shoes.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that English lacks the words that would let you be precise. We need a word for people who are vegan in diet, and don't care to bother the rest of the world about it. That's why OPs question keeps coming up.

Inui ,

Plant-based is the label for people who follow a vegan diet (plant-based diet) but not a vegan lifestyle like avoiding leather.

surewhynotlem ,

Do people say that in restaurants? I've actually never heard it.

Inui ,

Generally, no. You might see it in grocery store labeling as a tactic to signal the food is okay for vegans but to try and not turn off someone who goes "ick" if something specifically says its vegan. But it's because "vegan" means the same thing in dietary terms. Vegan food is suitable for both vegans and people on plant-based diets, because the other things vegans are concerned with aren't related to diet so aren't relevant to the context.

IsThisAnAI ,

No. They are being pendantic.

Tywele ,
@Tywele@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

The answer is "plant-based diet"

surewhynotlem ,

Do people say that in restaurants? I've actually never heard it.

ReiRose ,

I think plant-based is the diet choice and veganism is the lifestyle. I got corrected by someone who was plant based. They didn't want to associate with vegans

r0ertel ,

I came here to say the thing that you said in better words. I'm on a diet for health reasons that closely resembles the vegan diet, so to keep it simple, I'll say to people that I'm vegan. Most wait staff don't care if I ask if a menu item can be made vegan, but family or people I'm dining with will either send hate vibes or go into a long thing about some distant vegan relative who died from malnutrition.

tiefling ,

It's an issue of the loud ones standing out the most. I can easily say the same thing about many carnivores I know, who moan and complain if there's as much as a piece of corn in their meal.

(Though disclaimer, I'm not vegan)

Today ,

My son used to tell this joke - little less relevant now that the giant hand sized vapes are less common.

If you vape, you're vegan, and you're a musician; which one do you talk about first?

Fal ,
@Fal@yiffit.net avatar

Fucking goats?

Today ,

That wasn't one of the three, but I'd imagine there may be some crowds where you bring that up early and some where you hold off.

Floey ,

Yes, some people being pushy and judgemental is the real travesty. Not animals having their autonomy and lives taken. I didn't realize we were supposed to coddle people who we see partaking in grave abuses.

foggy ,

It's simple: if you don't shove your ways in other people's faces, it's fine. If you do, it's not.

I don't care if you're vegan, but if you throw a BBQ and man the grill but don't cook any meat because it's not what you want, you're inviting criticism.

Aatube ,
@Aatube@kbin.melroy.org avatar

The thought of private vegan BBQs is funny to me since it seems so much more energy inefficient than the meat they don't eat in that meal.

NoIWontPickAName ,

I figure a vegan BBQ would be more things like big ass marinated and smoked portabellos and corn steamed in the husk.

Bbq adds that smoke flavor, unless you’re doing like a gas grill in which case, I guess at least you aren’t heating up the house maybe?

Inui ,

Lol. "Please break your strongly held moral conviction for me because I want a burger". It doesn't hurt you to eat vegetables. Your eating meat isn't based on any analysis of ethics and how harmful industries are connected. You just like the taste of it. You're conflating veganism as a simple preference like ketchup vs. mustard and are asking someone to do something they would obviously be uncomfortable with because you can't go one event without meat. Ask yourself which action should invite more criticism.

foggy ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the moderator]

    •
    Inui ,

    Expecting vegans to cook meat for you is a special kind of privilege. I wish carnists would stop asking everyone else to appeal to their special diets. /s

    thisfro ,

    Woosh

    NoIWontPickAName ,

    If a vegan invites you to a bbq that they’re cooking and you show up expecting meat, that’s a you thing.

    A book I was reading by Dennis E Taylor changed my version of the golden rule.

    Instead we have the three rules:

    Iron; do unto those weaker than you whatever you want because they can’t stop you.

    Silver; Do unto others as you would have done unto you.

    Golden; Do unto others as they would do unto themselves.

    If you treat everyone as you want to be treated then you are disregarding what they actually want.

    It actually uses this exact example.

    If I treat someone as I want to be treated and offer them a steak while knowing they are veggie, then I have offered them nothing at all.

    I really really recommend the Bobiverse books, they really take a look at what it means to be human and an individual.

    Stupid sounding series name, but absolutely stellar(Lol, yes intended) books!

    Garbanzo , (edited )

    No one likes being criticized and labeled a monster by an ignorant prick. They way too frequently act like every egg comes from a half zombie chicken that's kept in a little box and tortured just for fun, or that a cow couldn't possibly end up in a cheeseburger after living its best life. Factory farming is bad for lots of reasons, but it's not characteristic of the entire industry.

    Inui ,

    What percentage of meat and dairy comes from non-factory farms and how many people are actually buying from those places? If factory farms produce something like 95% of the meat sold, can we then call it characteristic of the industry?

    NoIWontPickAName ,

    I can go in my fridge right now and pull fresh farm eggs and meat.

    Local animals that are treated wonderfully until they’re killed, and even then it’s a cleaner and better death than most of us will end up having.

    Whole life spent living in an open field, have a barn to go in when it rains, free food, now that I think of it these animals have a better life than most people I know.

    By god, that’s horrible to realize.

    We really need to focus on bringing down factory farms and cities.

    They both treat their subjects the same fucking way and we just let it happen.

    No smarter than the fucking cows, we all just need to spread out into towns and villages.

    Bring back manufacturing jobs, 1 factory per town could probably support the local economy, all the secondary places like gas stations, restaurants, barbers, grocery stores, bars, etc…

    Plus once we all spread out all the towns would have a little bit of everything from the cities and maybe I could finally get a good Italian joint around here.

    My choices are imo’s and the little pretentious place downtown that college kids parents go to when they are in town.

    I may be a little extra myself though, I’m moving to a town of 400 a few miles away because I think the town of 20,000 people is way too crowded.

    So YMMV I guess

    NoIWontPickAName ,

    Also my next plan is to move from that town into a house out in the woods where I can’t even see my neighbors.

    I never quite realized how much I hate you all, never mind you guys all move into cities and leave me more room without people.

    But I stand by the village and town idea, we need to move more people into towns.

    Towns are supposed to be our manufacturing backbone, with cities being the shipping and refining hubs.

    We are killing all of the feeders and moving them into cities

    thisfro ,

    If you want to eat meat or dairy or whatever, sure go ahead. But don't expect it not coming from factory farms, because it's likely not.

    Garbanzo ,

    TIL the eggs from my backyard chickens might be from a factory farm

    thisfro , (edited )

    That is very nice! But most people don't have their backyard chickens. What I mean is that many people think the meat they buy at the supermarket is not from factory farms. Sadly, most of it is. Like it is litterally characteristic for the industry to come back to your comment. Of course not 100%, but very close.

    https://ourworldindata.org/how-many-animals-are-factory-farmed

    Garbanzo ,

    Most isn't all and that's the point. You can be concerned about the ethical treatment of animals without going full vegan, you'll just need to pay more attention and money at the grocery store to support the right products.

    thisfro ,

    I don't want to get philosophical on the first part of this comment, but the second part is sadly just wrong. Paying attention and spending more money most often doesn't change a bit - at least where I'm shopping. Maybe the animals have a little more space on their factories and their feeding uses slightly less land, water etc.

    But this is a very important point for many vegans: It is a way to critique and boycott a very shitty system that doesn't allow for any good choices.

    Mastengwe ,

    I can only speak for myself, but not eating meat is not something that’s offensive. Nothing about veganism as a diet is offensive or in need of being critical of.

    It’s the reputation of them being insufferable and obnoxious. It’s their need to inject their diet into discussions that aren’t about them, or their diets. It’s the way they lord over everyone with a ‘holier than thou’ attitude.

    And I have experienced all these things first hand- MANY times.

    In short, the problem with vegans is that there aren’t enough positive and down-to-earth vegans to counter the bad ones.

    kava ,

    Veganism is more or less a 1st world phenomenon. Most humans, especially in the past, did not have the luxury to choose what they could eat. They ate what they could get and if they got access to meat and animal products they ate it because it has high nutritional and caloric value. Even the vegetarian Indians who don't eat meat foe religious purposes still have eggs, milk, etc.

    It feels disconnected with the human struggle.

    In addition, it's sort of meaningless in the grand scheme of things. OK. You don't eat meat to protect domesticated cows. In reality, those cows would not exist in the first place. So really, you're advocating to eliminate the species of domesticated cattle.

    In addition, our modern society requires massive amounts of energy which is often generated by fossil fuels. Even if a society uses 100% solar, they're importing products from countries like China that burn coal.

    So you're pumping out carbon emissions that will inevitably result in mass extinctions anyway. It seems like a meaningless protest against the inevitable. You say let's exterminate the cows to save them from suffering on one hand and with the other drive to work talking on your iPhone with the A/C turned up- contributing to the destruction of infinitely more animals.

    The only real way to stop is for everyone to give up every modern luxury and live in a log cabin in the woods. And for the vast majority of the population to die off.

    It just feels like pissing into the void but doing so with moral superiority.

    Having said all that, I empathize with many vegans. But those are some thoughts on why people may look down on vegans.

    Teppichbrand , (edited )

    Wow, you ticked like half of the Vegan Bullshit Bingo.
    The opposite of love is not hate, it's apathy. Please engage, don't just watch. Start wherever you like, but start!

    kava ,

    I looked through out of curiosity and I believe you can say with a bit of a stretch that I hit about 3.

    I'm never going to go vegan. I was raised in a part of South America with a very strong cattle / meat culture. I don't want to live without nice steaks every week.

    If that means some animal has to live in what's essentially slavery then it's the price I'm willing to pay.

    Just like we're both willing to live with poor 3rd worlders mining lithium and cobalt for us in abysmal conditions so that we can communicate on our fancy electronic devices.

    The system is a pyramid. Is it our fault we were born near the top? Reminds me of the part in the Bible, the rich man comes up to Jesus and asks him what he should do to get into heaven

    Jesus says "sell all of your belongings, give the money to charity, and follow me". What'd the rich man do? He cried.

    The point is that people wanna be good and ethical but don't actually want to give up quality of life. It's not just veganism, it's for everything. Capitalist/imperialist exploitation, climate change, etc.

    Try to lead by example, sell your stuff and follow Jesus.

    Veraxus ,

    To grossly oversimplify things, there are two kinds of vegans...

    Type 1 are "healthy living" and "sustainability" vegans. These type are generally benign, polite, helpful, positive, and keep to themselves unless asked. They also tend to not be super militant about their veganism... like the occassional egg from someone's beloved home-raised chickens is fine.

    Type 2 are ideological vegans. These types believe that "exploiting" "living creatures" in any way is fundamentally immoral, and because it's a morality issue (e.g. basically religion) the vast majority are very preachy, demanding, and in-your-face about it. They don't consider type 1 to be "real vegans".

    Type 2, being the loudest and most abrasive, giving veganism a bad name and ruining it for everyone.

    pb42184 ,

    I think people hate vegans more than veganism. The most annoying x% makes the other (100-x)% look bad

    Choose your own x I don't want dunks from either side lol

    FrostKing ,

    Because many people see it as political, or at least moral. And that means they want to "pick a side"

    postmateDumbass ,

    I do not like being told by someone that i need to become vegan because they have become vegan.

    WldFyre ,

    I don't think you've understood the arguments for veganism lol

    Of course proponents of a position/philosophy/political stace also subscribe to those beliefs. There are not many misogynists arguing in favor of feminism.

    postmateDumbass ,

    Counter argument: Problem is not too many cows. It is too many people.

    loudWaterEnjoyer ,
    @loudWaterEnjoyer@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    So just kill yourself then, it's literally that easy? Or are you suggesting to kill other people so you can keep enjoying your McTasty? Carnists are weird AF

    postmateDumbass ,

    You have restricted your diet, yet the hatred pores from your vegtable fueled/addled brain.

    I think you have proven my point.

    Thank you.

    WldFyre ,

    So the answer isn't to eat less animals, it's to kill people to get our population down?

    For the record, my wife and I chose to not have kids. And in my experience, usually the people that are gung ho to have a large family and lots of kids are right-wing, meat-loving morons.

    loudWaterEnjoyer ,
    @loudWaterEnjoyer@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    How have I proven your point? Your argument was to get rid of people, I just guessed you also offer yourself up? Otherwise what makes you think you can suggest to kill other people?

    wolandark ,
    @wolandark@lemmy.world avatar

    no one hates veganism, we just hate the vegans

    Teppichbrand ,

    Become a good one then!

    Aceticon ,

    Imagine that you go to an outdoor barbecue on a bright Summer day.

    And some guy who is an extreme Muslim is going around telling some women that they're not dressed in a modest enough way and that everybody should follow the Teachings of the Prophet and how life is a lot better when people follow the Teachings of the Prophet.

    It's not Islam that's the problem, it's certain kinds of people, their proselytising and, worse, their trying to force or even impose their own moral values on others.

    Same with Veganism and some kinds of Vegans: because it's a moral choice some of those who practice it have the very same behavioural disfunctions as religious nutters and because they're the most visible representatives of it they just cause many to draw negative conclusions about the entire thing.

    blackris ,

    The problem is: most times it works the other way. You are at a barbeque and bring your own stuff. There are always people who feel obliged to talk shit about you – or worse, cannot shut up about their own meat consumption, how they only buy the „good“ meat and only seldom, but how hard it would be without cheese and so on.

    Yeah, there are some preaching vegans, but those few are not the reason why some people are hating on us.

    HelixDab2 ,

    I'm married to a vegetarian that used to be vegan. They saw far, far more preaching vegans than not. Many vegans believe that militancy is required, in the same way that anti-abortion activists believe that mobbing women at clinics is the only moral choice.

    jo3rn ,

    Now imagine there's an outdoor barbecue and you're a pig and the only person speaking up for you is disregarded by everybody else as a dysfunctional nutter.

    Aceticon ,

    So are you saying that that following the Teachings Of The Prophet on how a woman should dress in a modest way and in all other thinks in life, alhamdulillah, is less important than speaking for a pig!!!???

    RIPandTERROR ,
    @RIPandTERROR@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    I think a lot of people also have a hard time seeing it as a priority for themselves compared to their personal problems and other ongoings. It's subjective, sure. But it also takes a ton of personal responsibility and self control/denial to change habits.

    Bottom line, there is a lot of things out there to care about right now, and being vegan is a big change for a lot of people. That, mixed with the extreme (understandable) feelings about mistreatment of animals by vegans, often leads to a feeling of repulsion from investing personal bandwidth into changing the behavior.

    That's my opinion based on growing up with religiously vegan parents.

    Ragnarok314159 ,

    They also view it as a silver bullet solution to most of the world’s climate problems. I have heard and read so many of them say how if everyone were vegan, pollution would almost disappear overnight and the earth would be saved.

    They of course are the loudest vegans possible and make the rest look bad.

    Teppichbrand ,

    Were you raised vegan from birth? Are you still vegan? Asking out of curiosity.

    RIPandTERROR ,
    @RIPandTERROR@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar
    1. yes 2) no

    It was a seventh day Adventist situation.

    That being said, I don't like animals hurting and I generally opt for vegan/vegetarian options when available since there's often the option, but of the many worthy fights out there, this is how much emotional currency I'm able to spend. Wish it was easier.

    Unfortunately jerky also makes for a great weight loss option so I get that from time to time. I understand why die hard vegans feel the way they do and I heavily empathize and want to contribute to a more progressive tomorrow, but I'm unwilling to invest my limited energy further than where I am now.

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